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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Team Smash The Patriarchy needs Mumsnet input/representation

605 replies

JenniferJames · 14/02/2018 18:13

We are hoping to have someone familiar with Mumsnet liaising with you on what the majority feeling is here and getting a list of your priorities for the outcome of GRA changes. The crowdfunder women are all Labour women, so any representations organised by us will take place within the confines of the Labour party.

However as this affects all women and is such a cross-party issue, we hope that people will lobby within their own parties, or their own factions within their own parties... and we can compare notes!

This is part of a piece on self-id from Bella Caledonia, it represents a good starting point for debate... bear in mind the debate has to end up with solutions and it's up to us to work that out together.

This is early days and we are all building this movement organically... let's see where it takes us.

Will check back and keep you posted Mighty Mumsnet.

Jennifer xx

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CONSULTATION RESPONSES
So how do we address all of this?
Below I will outline my suggestions for consultation responses and I contend that these are all absolutely necessary if we are to protect women and girls. Not one of these suggestions threatens trans rights. Equal does not mean identical. Trans women are not female. Trans people have their rights to live as they wish, love who they wish, and have the same legal protections as everyone else. And they should have the spaces and services they need; everyone supports that.
None of this requires women and girls to lose our rights.
Our rights are only threatened because trans activists don’t want any distinction made between trans women and women. But we are not the same and pretending otherwise erases the female sex class, preventing us from addressing our sex based oppression, and what could possibly be a more heinous act of misogyny than that? Surely no-one in the Scottish government believes that women don’t suffer as a result of our female bodies.
So firstly I suggest we call on the government to establish the following principles as an underpinning to any legislation affecting women and girls:
• Females suffer exploitation, discrimination, injustice, oppression and male violence due to their reproductive sex. And as such, female bodies have a political significance that they need to be able to talk about, organise around and address as a distinct reproductive class of people.
• Females deserve equality, to participate in society, to be safe, and to have their welfare valued. The government should monitor and address females as a sex class on all of these measures, however ‘woman’ is defined in legislation.
• Trans equality should be based on trans as a characteristic, and not on erasing the female sex as a characteristic.
• Females are not to blame for the climate of male violence they live in or for the effects. Victim blaming is never acceptable, and legislation should reflect this.
• Females should be able to set their own boundaries around their own bodies; understanding that anything less is in direct contravention of the principle of consent.
• Females should not be forced to adopt trans ideology/biological essentialism/genderism. There can be no assumption that women as a group identify as the feminine gender that is coercively imposed on them to subjugate them; and women who do not subscribe to genderism and instead contend that for them a woman is simply an adult female, must be able to assert this (that’d be most of us).
• The government should not work with any LGBT/Trans organisation that deems exclusive same sex attraction as inherently objectionable.
In order to work with the above principles, the government should identify and pursue the necessary Scotland specific exemptions/amendments to the Equality Act before making any changes to the GRA.
In addition, before moving to a system of self ID the government should do the following:
• Carry out Equality Impact Assessments (EQIAs) on how the proposed changes to the GRA will potentially affect the equality, participation, safety and welfare of women and girls, understanding that trans inclusion has already had an unmeasured impact.
• Inform and consult with women on sex segregation and male bodied trans inclusion to properly gauge how to protect women and girls on the aforementioned measures. Most women don’t realise what is already happening, and a recent Panelbase poll found that women in Scotland are 3:1 against male bodied trans people having access to female only spaces.
• Draw up the necessary Scotland specific exemptions/amendments in response to these assessments and consultations, in order to ensure women and girls are protected, and secure these with the UK government before moving forward with self ID. FAILURE TO DO THIS IS ABANDONING WOMEN AND GIRLS ENTIRELY.
• Draw up guidelines on how to implement Equality Act exemptions, so businesses and providers can do so without fear of legal action.
• Be aware that the Engender led women’s organisations’ joint statement saying that these changes posed no threat to women’s equality, was released without any of these organisations consulting their members regarding the GRA beforehand, and indeed without conducting and concluding their own research on how these changes will specifically impact on women’s equality. Not only this, they have not consulted with women at all despite being asked to do so and choosing to speak for us, and nor have they carried out any other work in order to gauge how women and girls are already self-excluding/are otherwise affected. Furthermore, when approached by victims in relation to this proposed legislation, they refused to engage with their concerns. I know – I am one of them. Therefore we should call on the government to understand that these organisations cannot possibly represent women in this, and since they came to their position before carrying out the work necessary to come to said position, the government should assess any cited research/data itself, rather than rely on the interpretation of women’s organisations.
Lastly, there are a few additional suggestions for steps the government should take in relation to other parts of their proposals:
• Carry out its own research on dysphoria in young people and on desistance, not least because – as the NHS notes – studies show that most children diagnosed as transgender grow out of it, with all of the studies undertaken on this showing anywhere from a 63% to 88% desistance rate. Within this the government should properly research suicidality; follow up interviews usually halve the percentage for suicide in studies, and controls are used to filter out other factors so results can be instructive as to the causes. The study referenced in the consultation was neither followed up nor controlled. The government also needs to be clear on how transition affects mental health, including for the majority who desist, and who – due to affirmation – didn’t receive the right support when they needed it. Only then can the government assess the potential impact of reducing the age limit for a GRC.
• Unless the government wants to assert that a woman is someone who identifies with being submissive, and a man is someone who identifies with male supremacy, they should not introduce a third legal gender. It is reactionary in the extreme to uphold the idea that women and men identify as/actually are the gender imposed on them, and this should not be assigned to people as part of any legislation, and providing trans services does not necessitate this either.
• Immediately move to introduce misogyny as a hate crime. Women are being targeted for violence and abuse at unprecedented levels, just for being women. We are even becoming targets of hate for talking about the meaning of our bodies, and naming male violence. We are an oppressed and marginalised group and deserve the same protections all other such groups have.
The Scottish government consultation has been written with a very clear bias, and the fact they haven’t carried out a single EQIA regarding how these proposals could potentially impact on the equality of women and girls is simply indefensible. Surely it’s in no-one’s interests that the government moves forward with legislation without understanding how to protect the largest marginalised group in our society. So let’s make sure that happens.

OP posts:
GuardianLions · 15/02/2018 18:59

I also want the GRA repealed

Ereshkigal · 15/02/2018 19:05

So do I. The equality and discrimination aspects can be dealt with by the EA. Why are we pretending that you can change sex? It's outdated. It's damaging to others. The movement has outgrown it. Transgender rights where there is genuine discrimination or reasonable adjustments can be made, as with disability law. So third spaces. And women's rights. Not "gender identity" to trump sex.

EmyRoo · 15/02/2018 19:06

I have only got up to RedToothbrushes excellent draft manifesto at 14:18, well put together. The more women who are able to make reasoned arguments, however quietly or loudly, in whatever words, the better.

TallulahWaitingInTheRain · 15/02/2018 19:06

Agree. Gender expression should be protected and the whole concept of transition should be junked. It doesn't even make sense on its own terms any more.

OrderOnline · 15/02/2018 19:09

Ahem! Third space is already taken! Hmm

GuardianLions · 15/02/2018 19:10

EXACTLY!!!

4TH SPACE to be added.

OrderOnline · 15/02/2018 19:11

So do I. The equality and discrimination aspects can be dealt with by the EA. Why are we pretending that you can change sex? It's outdated. It's damaging to others. The movement has outgrown it. Transgender rights where there is genuine discrimination or reasonable adjustments can be made, as with disability law. So third spaces. And women's rights. Not "gender identity" to trump sex.

So do I. The equality and discrimination aspects can be dealt with by the EA. Why are we pretending that you can change sex? It's outdated. It's damaging to others. The movement has outgrown it. Transgender rights where there is genuine discrimination or reasonable adjustments can be made, as with disability law. So 4th spaces. And women's rights. Not "gender identity" to trump sex.

Corrected for you!

GuardianLions · 15/02/2018 19:12

Much better!

OlennasWimple · 15/02/2018 19:13

I don't disagree with repealing the GRA as an aspiration, but I don't think that the time is right at the moment to make this the focus of any campaign

Partly because no party will want to be the next Bermuda, being seen to go backwards in equality legislation.

But also because Brexit means that there almost certainly isn't an existing suitable legislative vehicle nor any time available in Parliament to take through stand alone legislation, and won't be for some years

OrderOnline · 15/02/2018 19:15

We have been colonised by prams and baby changing units, and had to fight for our hard won spaces back, don't chuck us off the bus again!

thebewilderness · 15/02/2018 19:17

Gender dysphoria needs to be treated the same as the other body dysmorphia conditions are. We do not advocate liposuction for anorexics nor surgery for BIID.
The moment gender identity was defined by law as an protected class instead of a mental illness predators flocked to the designation to gain unfettered access to their preferred prey.
Now children are being chemically and surgically altered to reduce the risk of them being homosexual. It is despicable and unfortunately scaring the political parties with the legal costs of defending themselves against children whose abuse they sanctioned may be the only way to get their attention.

thebewilderness · 15/02/2018 19:20

OrderOnline, are you claiming that the law gives the disabled exclusive access to these spaces? I think you may be mistaken. There is no enforcement aspect of disabled restrooms for usage. Only the requirement they be provided.
I could be wrong, since I am disabled in the US and the laws are written differently here.

Akire · 15/02/2018 19:27

The problem with high jacking disabled toilets for example is that already there’s usually just one. Disabled people already take longer in loo than other people. Add to that baby changing and brest feeding mums who take 20min. All while you have no option but to sit outside and watch everyone else nip in and out of the other toilets.

While we are not saying other people can’t use it, if you don’t really need too and there are other loos you can use then you know we quite like to go when we need to. And get on with our day. Like everyone else!

On a grimmer note nearl very time I use Disabled loo I have wine pee off seat. Try to teach and pull down the toilet seat. Wipe up puddles so if was up to me to not share the space with more men and their pee that would suit me.

EmyRoo · 15/02/2018 19:33

I think Order makes a valid point, and I am glad she has made it. I have never considered the gender neutral toilet should be the accessible toilet, and I personally would have a completely separate baby change space too. It would be lazy thinking to simply suggest trans people use the disabled toilets.

The point about seeing who is being sterilised (treated for Rapid Onset Gender Dysphoria) is also well made. If there is a greater proportion of people on the autistic spectrum or with learning difficulties having ROGD and getting puberty blockers, this is essentially eugenics under a different guise, is it not? (I also think this about fetal screening).

Has anyone links to evidence (research studies) about the autism/ROGD link?

I agree with Oleanna that Jennifer James’ posts come across as written by different people, very inconsistent. I also agree that 20k will get eaten up quickly in court -I have been in a family law case for a year, the costs are prohibitive.

Those are my random points on this thread. I am not an activist type as I am already busy fighting my own battle, but I think change can be affected on many different levels if everyone does what they can.

TruScum · 15/02/2018 19:36

I won't bother saying that I'm almost bitterly disappointed after reading JJ's posts on this thread, as she has made it clear she doesn't care how she comes across.

I've swung from fully supporting her gofundme to thinking that actually this person could be a danger to this issue being taken seriously.

I'd suggest that everyone deadly serious about this steps about as far away from 'smash the patriarchy' as possible. It is divisive and we can't afford to alienate every woman that doesn't agree with us on some other issues.

This is the biggest issue facing women (and to a lesser extent transsexuals)

It needs to better and bigger than some sort of political party point scoring.

I thought this campaign was it but I now believe that if it is to have any chance of success it needs to mutate into something new. JJ is just too combative (not even with the TRA's, with women who support her) and too divisive.

GuardianLions · 15/02/2018 19:41

I don't see JJ as 'my leader' or anything. She has her voice and her way and she pisses people off.

But I don't mind people like that as much as other people appear to.

It takes all sorts.

fishdogpancakes · 15/02/2018 19:44

I want;

Free Speech. The right to use whichever pronoun I decide.

Free Debate. The right to peacefully think and communicate to reach solutions and compromise on any subject.

Freedom. To have access to female only spaces, schools, colleges, hospital wards, prisons, sport divisions designated to keep women and children separate from Men who would harm us sexually or physically by using their biological body strength against us.

GuardianLions · 15/02/2018 19:49

fishdog I agree with that approach.

The spirit of defending rights and freedoms

Eg - the right and the freedom to choose sex segregated schools, hospital wards, and other spaces.

Destinysdaughter · 15/02/2018 19:49

I think our message needs to be to demonstrate to women, in practical terms, how this might affect them in real life. There were 2 threads about the SwimEngland's proposals to allow self identifying men to use female changing rooms and most pp were horrified. It certainly motivated me to write to my MP! It can't be sloganistic or arcane as to not alienate pp. Most women have little or no understanding as to the implications of what changes to the GRA could mean, but once they do, they get it pretty quickly!

GuardianLions · 15/02/2018 19:51

Yes indeed.

The right to use sex segregated swimming facilities for privacy and safety.

GuardianLions · 15/02/2018 19:53

If we stay positive and fight for what we want, rather than what we don't want, then people will think huh? What ? I thought we already did have those things...

Then you can explain that no - sex segregation no longer exists.

Destinysdaughter · 15/02/2018 19:53

I also think it would be useful to find concrete examples as to how this has affected women in countries such as Canada where self identification has already become law, closing down women's bookshops and deeming a women's only spa to be unlawful etc.

GuardianLions · 15/02/2018 19:54

exactly.

And think about all the things we will miss about sex segregation.

Ereshkigal · 15/02/2018 19:54

Someone started a thread the other day to collect examples. I'll post link.

TheGoalIsToStayOutOfTheHole · 15/02/2018 19:56

Yeah when I discuss third spaces, I do not mean use the disabled toilets, I mean add another option which is gender neutral, wherever possible. So yeah I guess that would be a 4th space.

This thread is a bit of a mess, but tempers are rising over this issue i guess. We need to stop infighting, we need to be together on this. and it IS a cross party issue so I feel alienating Tory posters is daft. Its not just about Labour and AWS, the issue is much bigger than that. I know the fundraiser is just about AWS, but thats really the thin end of the wedge.

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