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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Team Smash The Patriarchy needs Mumsnet input/representation

605 replies

JenniferJames · 14/02/2018 18:13

We are hoping to have someone familiar with Mumsnet liaising with you on what the majority feeling is here and getting a list of your priorities for the outcome of GRA changes. The crowdfunder women are all Labour women, so any representations organised by us will take place within the confines of the Labour party.

However as this affects all women and is such a cross-party issue, we hope that people will lobby within their own parties, or their own factions within their own parties... and we can compare notes!

This is part of a piece on self-id from Bella Caledonia, it represents a good starting point for debate... bear in mind the debate has to end up with solutions and it's up to us to work that out together.

This is early days and we are all building this movement organically... let's see where it takes us.

Will check back and keep you posted Mighty Mumsnet.

Jennifer xx

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CONSULTATION RESPONSES
So how do we address all of this?
Below I will outline my suggestions for consultation responses and I contend that these are all absolutely necessary if we are to protect women and girls. Not one of these suggestions threatens trans rights. Equal does not mean identical. Trans women are not female. Trans people have their rights to live as they wish, love who they wish, and have the same legal protections as everyone else. And they should have the spaces and services they need; everyone supports that.
None of this requires women and girls to lose our rights.
Our rights are only threatened because trans activists don’t want any distinction made between trans women and women. But we are not the same and pretending otherwise erases the female sex class, preventing us from addressing our sex based oppression, and what could possibly be a more heinous act of misogyny than that? Surely no-one in the Scottish government believes that women don’t suffer as a result of our female bodies.
So firstly I suggest we call on the government to establish the following principles as an underpinning to any legislation affecting women and girls:
• Females suffer exploitation, discrimination, injustice, oppression and male violence due to their reproductive sex. And as such, female bodies have a political significance that they need to be able to talk about, organise around and address as a distinct reproductive class of people.
• Females deserve equality, to participate in society, to be safe, and to have their welfare valued. The government should monitor and address females as a sex class on all of these measures, however ‘woman’ is defined in legislation.
• Trans equality should be based on trans as a characteristic, and not on erasing the female sex as a characteristic.
• Females are not to blame for the climate of male violence they live in or for the effects. Victim blaming is never acceptable, and legislation should reflect this.
• Females should be able to set their own boundaries around their own bodies; understanding that anything less is in direct contravention of the principle of consent.
• Females should not be forced to adopt trans ideology/biological essentialism/genderism. There can be no assumption that women as a group identify as the feminine gender that is coercively imposed on them to subjugate them; and women who do not subscribe to genderism and instead contend that for them a woman is simply an adult female, must be able to assert this (that’d be most of us).
• The government should not work with any LGBT/Trans organisation that deems exclusive same sex attraction as inherently objectionable.
In order to work with the above principles, the government should identify and pursue the necessary Scotland specific exemptions/amendments to the Equality Act before making any changes to the GRA.
In addition, before moving to a system of self ID the government should do the following:
• Carry out Equality Impact Assessments (EQIAs) on how the proposed changes to the GRA will potentially affect the equality, participation, safety and welfare of women and girls, understanding that trans inclusion has already had an unmeasured impact.
• Inform and consult with women on sex segregation and male bodied trans inclusion to properly gauge how to protect women and girls on the aforementioned measures. Most women don’t realise what is already happening, and a recent Panelbase poll found that women in Scotland are 3:1 against male bodied trans people having access to female only spaces.
• Draw up the necessary Scotland specific exemptions/amendments in response to these assessments and consultations, in order to ensure women and girls are protected, and secure these with the UK government before moving forward with self ID. FAILURE TO DO THIS IS ABANDONING WOMEN AND GIRLS ENTIRELY.
• Draw up guidelines on how to implement Equality Act exemptions, so businesses and providers can do so without fear of legal action.
• Be aware that the Engender led women’s organisations’ joint statement saying that these changes posed no threat to women’s equality, was released without any of these organisations consulting their members regarding the GRA beforehand, and indeed without conducting and concluding their own research on how these changes will specifically impact on women’s equality. Not only this, they have not consulted with women at all despite being asked to do so and choosing to speak for us, and nor have they carried out any other work in order to gauge how women and girls are already self-excluding/are otherwise affected. Furthermore, when approached by victims in relation to this proposed legislation, they refused to engage with their concerns. I know – I am one of them. Therefore we should call on the government to understand that these organisations cannot possibly represent women in this, and since they came to their position before carrying out the work necessary to come to said position, the government should assess any cited research/data itself, rather than rely on the interpretation of women’s organisations.
Lastly, there are a few additional suggestions for steps the government should take in relation to other parts of their proposals:
• Carry out its own research on dysphoria in young people and on desistance, not least because – as the NHS notes – studies show that most children diagnosed as transgender grow out of it, with all of the studies undertaken on this showing anywhere from a 63% to 88% desistance rate. Within this the government should properly research suicidality; follow up interviews usually halve the percentage for suicide in studies, and controls are used to filter out other factors so results can be instructive as to the causes. The study referenced in the consultation was neither followed up nor controlled. The government also needs to be clear on how transition affects mental health, including for the majority who desist, and who – due to affirmation – didn’t receive the right support when they needed it. Only then can the government assess the potential impact of reducing the age limit for a GRC.
• Unless the government wants to assert that a woman is someone who identifies with being submissive, and a man is someone who identifies with male supremacy, they should not introduce a third legal gender. It is reactionary in the extreme to uphold the idea that women and men identify as/actually are the gender imposed on them, and this should not be assigned to people as part of any legislation, and providing trans services does not necessitate this either.
• Immediately move to introduce misogyny as a hate crime. Women are being targeted for violence and abuse at unprecedented levels, just for being women. We are even becoming targets of hate for talking about the meaning of our bodies, and naming male violence. We are an oppressed and marginalised group and deserve the same protections all other such groups have.
The Scottish government consultation has been written with a very clear bias, and the fact they haven’t carried out a single EQIA regarding how these proposals could potentially impact on the equality of women and girls is simply indefensible. Surely it’s in no-one’s interests that the government moves forward with legislation without understanding how to protect the largest marginalised group in our society. So let’s make sure that happens.

OP posts:
OrderOnline · 15/02/2018 17:09

Autistic and learning disabled children.

You think you are scared, professionals remove our children, we are not able to resist as non disabled women.

OrderOnline · 15/02/2018 17:11

TRAs police is too. We can't talk about our health in the open, they make us physically and mentally ill, from lack of access to health care, peer support and social isolation, due to their behaviour.

mirialis · 15/02/2018 17:14

Order In that clip the poor transwoman was very obviously male and very obviously up for a confrontation. I would not want them sharing facilities with a disabled or able-bodied child.

GuardianLions · 15/02/2018 17:32

Thanks OrderOnline

OrderOnline · 15/02/2018 17:33

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Message withdrawn at poster's request.

GuardianLions · 15/02/2018 17:34

Good grief.

OrderOnline · 15/02/2018 17:38

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GuardianLions · 15/02/2018 17:40

Have you written to your MP?

BeUpStanding · 15/02/2018 17:42

Order please don't be frightened about getting the help you need. Is there someone you can talk to about your concern, maybe your GP?

Datun · 15/02/2018 17:42

JJ

Women are being active. As much as they possibly can. We are constantly writing to our MPs. We are talking in real life.

Don't underestimate individual word-of-mouth. There has been a huge sea change on mumsnet alone. In the last year. Of people getting on board, who were previously transactivist allies.

Mumsnet has 12 million unique users per month. That's a shit load of women.

People share articles all the time. The new schools guide from Transgendertrend, for instance. There is a push now to get that into schools. (Because children are being indoctrinated at an incredibly young age by Mermaids/GIRES).

So here's my question for people like Red. (I'm sorry but I don't have political experience.)

How does it work? If we came up with a set of proposals, like yours for instance, how do we get them be addressed?

Furthermore, at what point can ordinary women detect the critical mass of public support, to then be confident in changing the minds of politicians?

The AWS issue is pivotal. It does need to be tested. Quite apart from the issue itself, it sends a signal, that this huge, overwhelming cultural shift towards unisex everything (which is in entirely legal), must stop.

Also, a lawyer said on here recently that courts will take the line of ambiguity as much as possible. Precisely in order not to get nailed down over something that subsequently ties them in legal knots.

So I don't think we are going to get a legal definition of the word (biological) woman any time soon.

So a GRC will effect a substitute for the word woman, but only in legal sense. 'Women and legal women'.

Only 1% of trans people have a GRC. And keeping the gatekeeping is paramount to maintaining that.

OrderOnline

Disabled spaces should be ring fenced. And dismantling that will happen over my dead body.

GuardianLions · 15/02/2018 17:44

Maybe you can also get access to an advocate who can kick the necessary butt to make sure you don't get fobbed off.

OrderOnline · 15/02/2018 17:45

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Gacapa · 15/02/2018 17:45

*Yep. I agree a cross party coalition is needed, I don't know how to do that or how it would work.

At the moment we have, in terms of groups pushing back, that I can think of:
Labour party socialist vanguard in the form of ppl like me and Venice (dgaf semi-anarchist left)

Labour party socialists, sensible, getting a broader consensus like A Woman's Place

I don't know what other groups are pushing back. Umbrella organisation needed.*

I'm very uncomfortable with the way this is going. JJ can only think of Labour Party socialists pushing back? Wft?

This is the most important fight that women have faced in generations. Please don't let it become hijacked by a Corbyn apologist or Labour Party people using it for socialist credit.

I'm out where all this is concerned. We need to be calm, reasoned, non-partisan and shit hot.

I'm sorry but we are being seriously derailed here. We are not here to save the Labour Party, let alone tell women they're worthless!

OrderOnline · 15/02/2018 17:45

Thank you.Flowers

QuentinSummers · 15/02/2018 17:48

I'm sorry but we are being seriously derailed here. We are not here to save the Labour Party, let alone tell women they're worthless!

Yes we are.

QuentinSummers · 15/02/2018 17:49

Being derailed I mean, not being here to save the Labour party Grin

Still, things are moving in a positive direction and a legal challenge could still be very useful

Cascade220 · 15/02/2018 17:53

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OrderOnline · 15/02/2018 17:54

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GuardianLions · 15/02/2018 17:54

That's great that your MP is onside OrderOnline - even if scared to be out about it.

GuardianLions · 15/02/2018 18:11

I'm thinking there needs to be a campaign with a punchy name that politicians can get behind. eg call the campaign:

FACTS ABOUT SEX

  1. Teach children FACTS not false hopes they can change SEX.
  2. Administer healthcare and medicine according to FACTS of biological SEX.
  3. Make equality law based on the FACTS of SEX inequality.
  4. Ensure that in law people are registered by the FACT of their SEX.

etc etc - just avoid talking about transpeople and gender.

thebewilderness · 15/02/2018 18:20

Stick to the points. Come up with solutions we can all get behind. Anything else is bs.
I suggest you look up the concept of brainstorming and once you understand what we are doing here it would help if you stopped interrupting with your name calling and sniping.

OlennasWimple · 15/02/2018 18:47

This thread is odd - it's almost like there are multiple people posting as JJ, it veers so much from "mighty MN" to "I don't give a shit about you" to "I want to hear your thoughts" to "fuck off derailers and Tories!" Confused

Anyway, my thoughts FWIW

£20k isn't going to go very far in taking legal action, especially as it's likely to go through more than one court. The crowdfunder was explicitly for the purpose of challenging the inclusion of transwomen on AWS, so stick to that with the money.

Separately, there needs to be a decent PR campaign to get across a simple, succinct message about exactly what the concerns are re self-ID. This is where it gets broader than AWS (which has little resonance beyond politics folks) and into the territory of more than 80% of MIT retaining a fully functioning penis / drugs being prescribed to teenagers for long term use despite all the research requiring their use to be limited for menopausal women / dignity, privacy and safety of sex segregated spaces.

There may be a good agency out there who could lead it, but the content needs to be carefully written. As Lass and others have said, talking about TIMs and safe spaces just turns people off and they tune out before hearing the important messages.

Politically, much depends on finding MPs / senior council leaders / others in a position of influence who are prepared to spearhead stuff. For example, a Private Members Bill is unlikely to become law but it gets the issue talked about in Parliament.

A really well-worded e-petition can get traction too.

It's old fashioned, but writing letters to your MP really does work, particularly if they send them on to the relevant minister for a reply. (If you write directly to the minister you will probably get a letter back from an official, and it will get nowhere near the minister; they HAVE to reply themselves to a letter from an MP, even if the MP's letter says no more than "I received the enclosed from one of my constituents, can you let me have a reply that I can send them?")

I think the idea of pressing Amber Rudd to re-open the Miller report findings is a good one, though the Parliamentary Committee chaired by Miller is independent and they choose their own work.

TheGoalIsToStayOutOfTheHole · 15/02/2018 18:54

I want the GRA repealed. Its legal fiction has turned out to be the thin end of a dangerous wedge.

I genuinely do not see the point in it. Now that we have equal marriage, and equal pension rights..the original reason for having the GRA is moot. So why continue with it?

I nominate datun for this too. I have never seen her get angry and she puts points across in a way everyone can understand. Has much more patience than anyone I have ever seen, even when communicating with TRAs.

TheGoalIsToStayOutOfTheHole · 15/02/2018 18:57

If he's really interested then he could come on and address us directly (ditto the leaders of all parties).

Also this tbh. Corbyn has the chance to discuss with us directly, and has thus far ignored us. If he is actually concerned, he would accept. But he won't, as he does not seem to give a shit about women at all.

GuardianLions · 15/02/2018 18:58

Datun (and everyone else) has the right to retain anonymity though.

So I'm sure Datun could write a statement we could get behind.