So frustrating

[sexnotgender]

I had the most frustrating conversation last night, with a very smart man.

I walked into a conversation at a friends house where they were already discussing mtf trans people so I joined in.

After a bit I asked him to simply tell me what a woman was, he ummed and ahhed and danced around it. Then eventually said he didn’t want to answer. FFS.

Wanted to bang my head off a wall.

As I was at a friends house I let it drop as I didn’t want to upset anyone.

He also used the words TERF and cis!

That’s because he, like everyone else, knows that it’s about biology and chromosomes. He knows that it’s a logic fail to his apparent “progressive” attitude.

That sounds massively frustrating.

However, seeing someone squirm awkwardly and then refuse to answer what should be a perfectly simple question may have been informative for the group.

Also, if you ever see him again and he tries to talk about the issue again you can shut him down quickly (because how can he presume to talk about cis anything when he doesn't seem to know what a woman is?)

One of the other guys said as we left - thank you for educating me.

So hopefully I at least cracked the window a little for a few people.

Hopefully he will remember your question and it will make him think about it more.

Obviously it depends on the friends and how much you feel able to go there, but if you think they generally view you as rational, you might try saying that you agree with some of the things they’re saying. Ultimately that is the assertive answer we perhaps need to work up to. Isn’t it awful that we are so cowed we don’t even feel we can voice an opinion.

And I would have felt exactly the same OP, but I’ve recently done an assertiveness course. If you aren’t happy with what you said this time, work out what you would have LIKED to have said. Then if it crops up again, see if you feel ready to say what you really want to say.

*don’t agree (or that you agree with some of the things the feminists are saying)

He also said that he thought the violence came from the TERF side.

So I asked him who was up in court this week for punching a 60 year old lady? He feigned ignorance.

Bet he’s telling his friends about the horrible TERF he met last night...

If he bullied you and you stood up for yourself, there will be people who saw that and that will make them think. That’s why the other man commented to you at the end. Pity he didn’t feel able to say so at the time, but it sounds like you have stood up to a bully and come out of it with your head held high.

It's great that what you said and did was an educational experience for someone - and I think this is often the case. A person so wedded to their doctrine that they refuse to answer questions is unlikely to be moved, but the people listening in who have very little idea about this debate, will learn something.

I definitely wouldn’t say he bullied me, I think he was a nice guy who actually has become so immersed that he can’t see any other way.

Well done, OP. Always worth remembering that your audience is as much the listeners-in as the person you're actually talking to.