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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Labour lose 3 points - ALL women leaving the party

609 replies

goodyzoe · 11/02/2018 01:42

"The 3-point fall in the Labour share [in You Gov poll] is entirely explained by a 6-point fall among women (from 46% to 40%)"

CON 43 (+1)
LAB 39 (-3)
LD 8 (+2)

@jenniferjames says "Oh fucking hell. I broke the Labour party. :-( "

I've got very mixed feelings. On the one hand - go everyone! They'll have to take notice - surely?

But - Jesus Christ let's not let the Tories have another term.

But - we have to stick up for ourselves don't we.

Starting to think the people who say the rapid rise in TRA ideology is being fuelled by those who stand to benefit from a divided left might have a point. Sad

www.twitter.com/NCPoliticsUK/status/961537001689370624

Labour lose 3 points - ALL women leaving the party
OP posts:
Thread gallery
6
TheXXFactor · 12/02/2018 23:39

It's not just self-ID itself, it's what it has revealed about Labour. The intolerance of debate, the desperation to silence women, the cult-like parroting of "trans women are women". I am disgusted by the way that Stella Creasy, Angela Rayner and co have piled on to label gender critical women as bigots, while fawning over Lily M. Nor do I believe that they really believe that TIM are women: they are lying to avoid controversy and are happy to throw women's rights away to further their own careers. They are despicable cowards.

BarrackerBarmer · 12/02/2018 23:52

Ytho Perhaps I should bow out now. I'm saddened that anyone would consider sacrificing NHS, education etc over this issue. Even with self Id, if it was pushed through, I believe those things would still help women and girls.

Have a read of this, it's quite brief.

“Women were betrayed by the revolution they helped to make” – Gender, Class and Security Politics in Iran

Turn your anger towards the politicians who are forcing us to choose between our rights and the NHS. Reframe this battle as men so determined not to cede rights and protection to women that THEY are prepared to risk losing everything rather than concede that women should be afforded the rights we deserve.

If those with agency and power have it within their gift to do right by women, and they know this is is the single most compelling route to winning a landslide of women's votes, and yet STILL they hesitate and risk losing all - how much blame rests upon them?

Will they consider: we could have won it all but we didn't want to recognise women as deserving of their rights?

THEY are the ones sabotaging labour's rights. Not women. We are fighting for survival. And that is where we must focus.

The experience of the Iranian feminists is a sobering lesson for me.

BarrackerBarmer · 13/02/2018 00:07

[[https://www.theglobeandmail.com/news/world/how-irans-revolution-betrayed-its-women/article4087027/ "For Ms. Moghissi, who fled Iran with her family in 1984, there were prerevolutionary signs of an impending harsh theocratic state that would trample civil rights. One sign came during the heady, chaotic months leading up to the shah's departure, when pro-Khomaini followers prevented women from participating in anti-shah protests.

"That was a kind of bell-ringing, what would be in store for women. I would say that some of us had become disenchanted with the revolution.""]]

I hear a bell ringing now, for what is in store for women here, in the UK, 2018.

It isn't religious - at least, people don't recognise this religious dogma for what it is. But it doesn't have to have a place of worship, incense and holy garb to be a religious movement. It only has to require slavish obedience and give penalties for non-believers. Already people have lost jobs, are being silenced, no platformed. People are being threatened with prosecution. There is talk of hate speech and hate crimes. Medical professionals are forming secret groups. Women are forming secret groups. Academics are being censored. People are being banned from media platforms, suspended from political parties. Science is being edited. Laws are changing.

If that isn't all a cacophony of ringing bells I don't know what is.

lostmeagesago · 13/02/2018 00:15

So what took you all so long?

Anyone who is still a member of Labour post the Ken Livingstone debacle has no moral leg to stand on.

If you were happy to ignore it when they first came for the Jews, don't now be surprised when they come for women's rights.

Momentum is a cult and Corbyn is the Leader despite his pro-Putin, pro-Iranian, Pro-Hamas and pro-Hezbollah and pro-IRA past.

You were warned and you were warned and you were warned again.

It's hardly surprising that Labour can't beat the Tories in either an election or the polls despite the Tories being at each others' throats daily, the shitshow that is Brexit and corruption and scandal to rival Major's government.

While Corbyn is in charge, Labour is finished.

doctorcuntybollocks · 13/02/2018 00:19

I stopped supporting Labour on the day that Corbyn became leader, though it's fair to say that I was holding my nose for years prior to that.

thebewilderness · 13/02/2018 01:09

lostmeagesago Thanks for reminding me of my days as a labor organizer.
The beatings will continue until morale improves.

AskBasil · 13/02/2018 05:45

"Ytho Perhaps I should bow out now. I'm saddened that anyone would consider sacrificing NHS, education etc over this issue. Even with self Id, if it was pushed through, I believe those things would still help women and girls."

No they wouldn't.

Girls and women would be forced to share hospital wards with men with autogynephilia who have massive stores of rage towards females because they suspect the truth: that we don't believe that they are women, however much we obediently chant the mantra "transwomen are women". Look at how India Willoughby expressed that rage in the CBB house, at the bottom of it is the knowledge that no-one really believes what they are pretending to and no amount of compliance can ever be enough. Such men would be on "same sex" wards with vulnerable, ill women.

We would be forced to endure being examined by "women" nurses with five o'clock shadow. When we asked for a chaperone when undergoing an intimate examination with a male doctor, another male in a dress would be presented to us as a suitable chaperone; when we are in our eighties and unable to walk or dress ourselves, a male with a boner might be washing us and changing our clothes and if we noticed and complained, we'd be accused of being outdated transphobic dinosaurs.

Our girls would be taught that if they don't like pink and dolls, they need to be rushed off to a clinic for mastectomies and our boys would be taught that they need to be castrated if they do like pink and dolls, because they are trapped in the wrong bodies. The children who would have grown up healthy gay adults, will be put on a road of lifelong medicalisation and gender confusion. If we express our horror at our children and grandchildren's mutilation, they will be taken into care because we are clearly emotionally abusing them by not supporting the idea that they must really be the opposite sex because they don't conform to sexist stereotypes.

All this would be taught in our schools. The biology GCSE will need to be adapted to fit this shit.

We will never be able to use a gym or swimming changing room again without the certainty that someone who may be perving on us, may be present. We will never be able to go to a restaurant or cafe or museum or school loo, without knowing that there may be a man in the next cubicle. Some of those men will be sitting there wanking because they get off on the sound of women peeing. Yes, there is nothing in life that a man in our sick society can't make a sexual fetish out of.

Don't tell me this is hysterical anti-man nonsense. It's already happening and self-ID can only escalate it.

Don't tell me this is a single issue. It's the biggest attack on women's rights in my lifetime and I've lived on Earth for half a century. This will affect every single aspect of how we live our lives. And yes, the weakest, the most vulnerable, the ones who don't have a cushion of money to protect them, will suffer most. All the time being told we live in glorious inclusive society. That's what a vote for Labour at the current time means. It's too dangerous.

And yes, I recognise that Tories are dangerous too. But it is absolutely mistaken to believe that Labour will rescue us. They won't they hold us in complete contempt. Lily Madigan is the living proof, of what Labour think of women.

gussyfinknottle · 13/02/2018 06:08

Lostinedinburgh, thanks for telling me. I would've checked before I voted but you have really helped.
Spoil my ballot, it is.

makeourfuture · 13/02/2018 06:11

Together.

Together.

We can do anything.

AngryAttackKittens · 13/02/2018 06:18

It's impossible to enforce anti-discrimination or human rights legislation for a group that can't be defined. Make woman mean "anyone who says they're a woman" and every other right we have vanishes with the stroke of a pen.

I've lived in a country where women are legally chattel before. I won't do it again without a fight.

FloraFox · 13/02/2018 06:32

I think the Labour Aparnaa ty’s position on the trans issue would be the same no matter who is in charge of the party. If the Lib Drme, Tories, Grrens and even the WEP FFS are all in with it who in Labour would stand up for women?

makeourfuture · 13/02/2018 06:42

who in Labour would stand up for women?

You. Me. We will stand up together.

We can make our party whatever we want it to be.

Our party is us.

Botanistinhiding · 13/02/2018 07:25

Our party hasn’t been us for some time now make, everything people have been saying - it was obvious what kind of politician Corbyn was for years but it’s becoming clearer and clearer. He doesn’t listen to dissent, he ignores it.

Corbyn, I don’t think the enthusiasm is infectious...

I’m angry that the Labour Party is such a poor choice that the disabled are being let down by a party that can’t win an election and doesn’t have well thought out policies or the ability to execute well.

Floisme · 13/02/2018 07:29

YTho if you're still reading.
I remember when it was legal to pay women less than men for the same job.
I remember jobs being advertised for either men or women.
I remember girls being taught different subjects from boys.
I remember women openly and routinely being sacked for becoming pregnant.
I remember women having no maternity leave.

Pretty backward times you may think. But there was one right women did have then: the right to get together without men. Do you really think we would have won the rights we enjoy now if we hadn't been able to organise ourselves and take action? Do you think men would have just handed them over?

That's why I will spoil my ballot before I vote for a party that believes men have the right to decide they are women. Now if you're still around, I would really like to hear why why you think this is just about 'one issue'.

Greensmurfterf · 13/02/2018 07:47

Fantastic post AskBasil.

makeourfuture · 13/02/2018 07:52

It is a democratic party!

Change it!

Myunicornfliessideways · 13/02/2018 08:17

make it is not a Democratic Party. That's exactly why Jennifer James started a fundraiser for a legal challenge, Corbin unilaterally imposed self ID and men in AWS without taking it near conference. The party has ignored all questions and refused debate about it, and has suspended women for using their perfectly legal rights when they were not listened to. Committed Labour women who have worked for the party for years have been bullied out of their seats.

No, it's not democratic. No, women can't change anything from within. No, it's not 'our' party if you're female. I admire your loyalty but chanting hopeful slogans isn't going to fix this.

AngryAttackKittens · 13/02/2018 08:22

If it's a democratic party then how did Jennifer get kicked out? Don't get me wrong, I wish you were right, I'm just worried that you're not based on current evidence.

TallulahWaitingInTheRain · 13/02/2018 08:23

people have lost jobs, are being silenced, no platformed. People are being threatened with prosecution. There is talk of hate speech and hate crimes. Medical professionals are forming secret groups. Women are forming secret groups. Academics are being censored. People are being banned from media platforms, suspended from political parties. Science is being edited. Laws are changing

If that isn't all a cacophony of ringing bells I don't know what is

This

FlyTipper · 13/02/2018 08:34

Don't spoil your ballot - no one reads it - no one publishes what you write on it - no message is transmitted. They just count up the spoiled papers and that's it.

makeourfuture · 13/02/2018 08:42

Jeremy corbyn was elected twice. Large margins.

There are democratic processes.

Change it!

AngryAttackKittens · 13/02/2018 08:47

OK, how about you make some actual, concrete suggestions as to how people can change it rather than repeating the same essentially content-free comments on multiple threads?

LangCleg · 13/02/2018 08:50

If that isn't all a cacophony of ringing bells I don't know what is.

It really is. I can't get past the fact that this is a foundational struggle for the very existence of women, let alone women's rights. And my voting or my spoiling of ballot papers will be based on that fact.

CurriedNoodle · 13/02/2018 08:50

I am disabled, my daughter is disabled and if the Tories continue to backtrack on self ID I will vote for them next time.

Who are you to tell me that this issue isn't the biggest one. It will affect every single aspect of our lives. Every single woman will be impacted by this, and not just now, for the foreseeable future.

There is no other issue I will even be considering at the next election, it is that huge to me. I will vote whoever I feel will protect women. I believe this is far bigger than any party allegiances.

This is absolutely the hill I will politically die on.

AngryAttackKittens · 13/02/2018 08:53

I'm trying not to do this in Jennifer's thread since she honestly sounds like she needs an intervention from a loved one and some time away from social media, but I am really not fucking appreciating having this issue, which has an impact on the lives of all women, reduced to a struggle for power within the Labour party. This is not a about that. That's a symptom, not the cause. This is 100% a women's issue, and that means that all women deserve a say in what happens and we need to reach out across the usual political divides and help each other.