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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Labour lose 3 points - ALL women leaving the party

609 replies

goodyzoe · 11/02/2018 01:42

"The 3-point fall in the Labour share [in You Gov poll] is entirely explained by a 6-point fall among women (from 46% to 40%)"

CON 43 (+1)
LAB 39 (-3)
LD 8 (+2)

@jenniferjames says "Oh fucking hell. I broke the Labour party. :-( "

I've got very mixed feelings. On the one hand - go everyone! They'll have to take notice - surely?

But - Jesus Christ let's not let the Tories have another term.

But - we have to stick up for ourselves don't we.

Starting to think the people who say the rapid rise in TRA ideology is being fuelled by those who stand to benefit from a divided left might have a point. Sad

www.twitter.com/NCPoliticsUK/status/961537001689370624

Labour lose 3 points - ALL women leaving the party
OP posts:
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6
Destinysdaughter · 12/02/2018 11:07

Bra Jaspert has tweeted this:

I'm seeking clear, evidenced information re @UKLabour stance on the row over definitions of woman and how these impact on womens rights, AW shortlists, DV shelters etc.
Please share evidence ONLY (not opinions/hearsay) using #WomenAskLabour

Plea -Labour MPs please talk to us?

Destinysdaughter · 12/02/2018 11:08

*Bea not Bra!

LangCleg · 12/02/2018 11:33

Bea Jaspert, bless her, is a study in #peaktrans. I've been watching her shock levels rise and rise in her utter disbelief as she realises what's been going on.

SamPotatoes · 12/02/2018 11:48

I mentioned up thread that I had received an email inviting me to become a full member of labour. I sent a detailed reply explaining why I would not and that labour risked losing my vote completely. I said that I was appalled by the treatment I have seen of labour women trying to discuss concerns, including what appeared to be data protection breaches.

I got a reply from the local councillor saying she was "moved" by the issues I raised and was getting someone from the regional team to contact me to "reassure me". It will be interesting to see what they have say about it...

WhereYouLeftIt · 12/02/2018 15:14

TerfyMcTerface Sun 11-Feb-18 12:52:44
Do we know if anyone actually notes the specifics of what is written on spoiled ballot papers?

Depends what you mean by 'note'.

Many moons ago, I used to be a vote-counter at local and general elections. To ensure no rigging by the counters, everything is actively scrutinised by candidates, party agents, whoever. I was on one side of the table and they were prowling the other side, eagle-eyed for anything untowards. As a lowly counter, any ballot paper that was not one cross in one box I put to one side, to be looked at by the supervisor, who would determine if it was a valid vote. Mostly it was blindingly obvious who the vote was for - the cross was beside their name rather than in the box, or it was a tick or some other mark in the box. Regardless, if it wasn't one cross in one box, it had to be confirmed by someone higher than me. The parties are desperate for those ballot papers to be valid and to be voting for them, so they paid a lot of attention to those papers, practically hanging over the supervisor as they adjudicated.

So, very close attention was paid to spoiled papers by the politicians and the parties during the actual count. I find it hard to believe that what is written would be forgotten the instant they left the count. And if a number of votes were spoiled in a way to indicate that the voter had done so over the issue of Self-ID, I do believe that the local parties and the candidates would take note, even if informally (and with a solid agreement never to mention it to the press).

However hard they try not to listen, they will hear a spoiled vote. And unless there's a real turnaround between now and the next election, I will be spoiling my ballot paper and making it clear that I do so because all candidates are pro self-ID, and therefore unacceptable to me.

AssignedPuuurfectAtBirth · 12/02/2018 15:17

That's good to know Where, thanks

BarrackerBarmer · 12/02/2018 15:23

I will be writing #SexNotGender on my spoiled ballot if no better options present themselves

gussyfinknottle · 12/02/2018 15:27

Thanks, Where. I always say that a spoiled ballot carries weight of its own- more in hope than expectation. This suggests I'm right. There were apparently loads of spoiled ballots in the French Presidential election- enough for commentators to remark on it.

busyboysmum · 12/02/2018 15:33

Might be worth trying to organise a mass spoiling by anyone gender critical with the hash tag #sexnotgender to get our point across

Horridemma · 12/02/2018 15:45

I am have always voted. I am happy to do a spoilt vote unless a party can convince me that as a female I do count #sexnotgender

TerfyMcTerface · 12/02/2018 15:54

Where - Thank you for that. Unless something changes before the local elections, I plan to draw a new box on the ballot paper, labelled "Sex not Gender" and (as brilliantly suggested by another MNer) an XX in the box.

busyboysmum · 12/02/2018 16:08

Might suggest this around a few secret GC women's groups I'm in.

IntelligentYetIndecisive · 12/02/2018 16:10

There's a thread about this, but this thread is mentioned in a Spectator blog.

You'll have to register or sign in to read it though.

blogs.spectator.co.uk/2018/02/jeremy-corbyn-has-a-new-enemy-mumsnet/

IntelligentYetIndecisive · 12/02/2018 16:13

James Kirkup

"I have learned a lot sincewriting about gender lawshere last week.

I’ve learned that if you ever want to flood your Twitter timeline with people arguing about something, writing an article about gender laws is a good way to do it.

I’ve learned that some people do indeed get very angry about this stuff, though not always the people you’d expect. The prickliest communication I had wasn’t from a Trans-Rights Activist or a Radical Feminist. It was from a parliamentarian. And overall, I’ve had nothing like the venom I’ve seen directed at other hacks who’ve written about this in similar ways; for some reason or another, people are less horrible to me about this than they are to Janice Turner and Helen Lewis.

I’ve learned that there are some brilliant, learned and compassionate people out there, who come at this from all angles. One (purely anecdotal) observation is that the diversity of opinions within the trans-gender population is not remotely reflected in the bit of this conversation most visible at Westminster. The trans community’s opinions are not as homogenous as some reporting and discussion suggest. So here’s a tip for hacks covering this: don’t just book Paris Lees or talk about Lilly Madigan. Ask Kristina Harrison what she thinks. Or Tara Hewitt. Or lots of other people. The same goes for the ‘radical’ feminist side of this: there’s more to it than Germaine Greer. (Though for some media outlets that really should know better, having any voice from that side of the conversation at all would be an improvement.)

Which brings me to the most politically pressing thing I’ve learned. Mumsnet is angry.And here’s something I already knew. When Mumsnet is angry, someone in politics is in trouble.

Now, I don’t know how many Spectator readers are also Mumsnetters, but those who aren’t might just assume that site is all middle-class mummies twittering about yoga and little Sophie’s Mandarin lessons. If so, they’d be wrong.

Mumsnet is fab and full of serious, interesting people talking about serious, interesting stuff. For an increasing number of them, that means gender recognition, self-defined gender and the implications (practical, social, political and philosophical) for women — by which I mean, people who were born female.

And again, purely anecdotally, it seems to me that a lot of those people are seriously unhappy. They think that the sort of self-declared gender laws that may end up in force in the UK, as they have in other countries, will do nothing less than render the word ‘woman’ meaningless, with all that that implies for equality and freedom and, well, civilisation as we know it.

To paraphrase some common sentiments: you can’tbecomea woman, because womanhood is based on biology, socialisation and experience that only those born to it can know; if the law dictates that a man can attain womanhood simply by signing a few forms, womanhood becomes empty and women lose any standing in society. Indeed, the very notion of objective truth goes out the window. To quote the formidably eloquent Kristina Harrison, accepting that people can define their own gender without external check or scrutiny is ‘to assert that subjective and unverifiable will subordinate objective biological sex as the pre-eminent cultural-legal category.’

This is an aspect of the gender debate I avoided last week because a) it’s endlessly complicated; b) I’m wary of getting into questions about experiences and feelings that I haven’t had and can’t share; and c) I’d end up revealing that I never really understood the post-modernism texts I pretended to read for my degree.

So I’m going to stick to the mundane politics of Mumsnet’s epistemological essentialism. Some important voters are angry, and a lot of them are angry at Labour.

Partly that’s because some of them are Labour people and they feel let down by their own party. For all the caricature of Corbynistas being twenty-something men angry at their middle-class parents, much of the Corbyn surge in Labour membership has come from older women, some of whom have rejoined the party after years away. Labour women made Corbyn; could they yet unmake him?

Partly it’s because Labour is the party pushing hardest towards self-ID in gender. Jeremy Corbyn talks like a man who wants rules that allow someone to define their own gender. That would mean that the party’s all-women shortlists (AWS) would be open to someone who was born male, retained male physiology and had undertaken no action to change that physiology, and was legally recognised as male. Such a person would be eligible for an AWS purely because that person declared themself to a be a woman.

This, for now, is the hottest political flashpoint in the gender debate. And if you read Mumsnet, it could be the spark that ignites a full-blown political firestorm, where women abandon Labour in droves. Mumsnetters are girding for war and have armed themselves with a hashtag: #labourlosingwomen, a banner that also covers concerns about the Corbyn leadership’s somewhat macho attitude to the treatment of Labour women who don’t worship St Jeremy and the way allegations of sexual wrongdoing by some Corbyn allies have been handled.

Does this matter? Isn’t this just some online grumbling in an angry echo-chamber? Maybe, but some Mumsnetters scent blood. YouGov’s regular tracker on 28-29 January put Labour on 42 percent overall and 46 percent among women. The latest tracker, conducted last week, has Labour on 39 percent overall, 4 points behind the Tories, and down to 40 percent among women.

Has Mr Corbyn really lost 6 points of female support (close to 1 million votes) in a few days? Almost certainly not; these are just two polls and nowhere near enough to call this a trend. But could Labour’s stance on trans and gender issues alienate women in significant numbers? I think it cannot be ruled out.

Sometimes in politics, perception matters more than reality. Narratives matter, and the narrative of ‘women vs Corbyn’ could quite easily take hold, and become self-fulfilling. The gender wars are currently a niche interest, but if this debate goes mainstream (and Britain’s slide into identity politics and culture war suggests it will), there is surely at least the potential for a lot of women to start thinking very hard about the implications of Labour’s approach.

In short, all the necessary components are in place for a real political grudge-match, the sort of no-holds-barred ultimate fighting cage-match that aficionados of political combat will tell their grandchildren about.

Ladies and gentlemen, take your seats, grab your popcorn and let’s get ready to rumble. Because it’s showtime: Corbynistas vs Mumsnetters. May the best women win."

IntelligentYetIndecisive · 12/02/2018 16:14

Just don't read the frankly insulting comments.....

Aclockworklemon · 12/02/2018 16:30

I can't bring myself to vote Labour, Green Party or the libDems now, however I could never bring myself to vote Tory. It could be argued that this situation has arisen as a result of the Tories cuts to the NHS and its ''non essential services'.

Excerpt from the New Statesman July 2017:

The new self-ID system was proposed by the Commons Women and Equalities committee, chaired by the former Conservative cabinet minister Maria Miller. It's a bit dismaying that this is the only bit of the committee's recommendations which has achieved any traction, because the report had some fairly stern words about the misery caused to trans people through their difficulty in accessing specialist NHS services. But, as I wrote at the time, fixing the lack of NHS funding is a lot more expensive than changing the GRC system.

OlennasWimple · 12/02/2018 17:10

Interesting Spectator piece

I noted that his Twitter feed was remarkably absent of the "die in a fire cisscum" screeches that female gender critical journos have to endure.

To the poster that is trying to reassure us that self-ID isn't official Labour PArty policy, well, it may as well be given that a self-IDed transwoman has already taken up a Women's Officer post Hmm

EmpressOfJurisfiction · 12/02/2018 17:12

I noted that his Twitter feed was remarkably absent of the "die in a fire cisscum" screeches that female gender critical journos have to endure.

Nice to see that he noted the difference between reactions to him & to Janice Turner or Helen Lewis, though.

YTho · 12/02/2018 17:29

I don't believe spoiling a ballot would make much of a difference. I really think it's just letting others choose for you.

Floisme · 12/02/2018 17:56

I don't like the idea any more than you do YTho but I can't see any alternative right now.

I've held my nose and voted labour in the past but I'm not voting for a party that thinks being a woman is just a feeling. That crosses a line for me.

I'm not voting tory and besides, I bet they'd still be pushing this insanity through if they hadn't pissed away their majority.

I don't know what else that leaves me. At least, as I understand it, spoilt ballots are recorded.

gussyfinknottle · 12/02/2018 18:25

Spoiling your paper is not letting others make the choice for you. I cannot vote Tory and I cannot hold my nose and vote Labour. UKIP is out of the question. I may vote Green. I may hold my nose and vote Lib Dem - hard to forgive them for student loan lie. Or I will write "you are all shite" on my paper.

LangCleg · 12/02/2018 18:53

I don't believe spoiling a ballot would make much of a difference.

We're in a first past the post system. Spoiling a ballot could make all the difference or none of the difference, depending on whether you're in a safe seat or a marginal seat.

Our votes have varying and limited value. All we can do is the best thing given the particular seat we're in and our particular voting priorities.

I won't be voting for any party still supporting self-ID come the next election. And just not including anything about it in the manifesto won't be good enough. There must be no self-ID clarity to get my vote. Otherwise, as above, I'll be spoiling my paper with #sexnotgender.

I quite like the idea of a spoiled ballot paper actually. It has a good ring of non-compliance about it, which chimes in with the issue at hand - that women's consent is required to access spaces, programmes and services meant for them.

Botanistinhiding · 12/02/2018 18:58

I’m fed up with fighting for the soul of the Labour Party loveslabours, any party that allows liymadigan to put out dismissive tweets about us all being transphobes is so far away from being able to debate democratically or put forward sensible policies I can’t see much hope is left.

We left the party shortly after the last election when it was clear Corbyn wasn’t stepping down as he hadn’t quite failed us all badly enough compared to the dismal expectations.

It’s been evident that Corbyn doesn’t listen, is a bully surrounded by other bullies and can’t make good policy for some time to me, none of this self-ID stuff is a surprise, but it’s still sad.

boatyardblues · 12/02/2018 19:00

Spoiling your ballot paper & marking it up as deliberate tells the parties standing in your constituency that you are an engaged person who could vote for them, but you are choosing not to. If they’ve got anything about them, they will take the trouble to find out why & then progress can be made to fix things. Much as I hate the idea of spoiling my ballot (and I do), I am exercising my right to vote & am not betraying all the hard work of the Suffragettes. Continuing to vote for numpties who take away our ability to define ourselves and organise to overcome the barriers we face is NOT democracy. Self-ID is a disaster for natal women.

FlyTipper · 12/02/2018 19:53

Spoiling ballots means nothing. No one knows why someone has spoiled their ballot paper. It is not as bad as not voting, arguably, but it sends no message. It's like voting Monster Raving or similar imo.

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