Meet the Other Phone. Flexible and made to last.

Meet the Other Phone.
Flexible and made to last.

Buy now

Please or to access all these features

Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Bluestocking lock in!

991 replies

QuentinSummers · 29/01/2018 22:00

Posted a whole thing on the last thread and it was locked!

Last thread here
www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3062013-The-Bluestocking-is-open-for-business
Here's my post replying to Moth
Thats an interesting article moth. Best not on the board or MRAs would be all over it!
I was wondering today, hopefully, if the news about darts getting rid of the girls means the overton window is shifting and maybe p0rn will become less acceptable?
If not all this hooha about F1 girls and the presidents club is just tinkering on the edges.

OP posts:
Thread gallery
10
Rufustheyawningreindeer · 08/05/2018 22:56

waddle

I was having a chat with my 3 14-19 years old

Workplace deaths came up when ds2 said 'more men die in the workplace'

And i said 'oh thats very interesting, it really depends on your definition of workplace...' and prepared myself to discuss (lecture Grin)

And ds2 turned round to ds1 and said 'I'm so sorry...i didnt think it through'

Made me laugh Grin

Waddlelikeapenguin · 08/05/2018 23:21

rufus that made me laugh too! Grin

Mine get the uhoh look when there is bad science on view. Grin Animals being described as adapting rather than evolving is a favourite. They brace themselves when they tell me a Pokemon has evolved & acknowledge that yes it's more a metamorphosis really Blush

Rufustheyawningreindeer · 08/05/2018 23:22

They are funny arent they

Lord love 'em

ISaySteadyOn · 11/05/2018 06:43

I have just had a horrifying thought that I feel safest to share here. If all toilets do become essentially unisex, how long before 'But you knew people with penises went in there, why did you go in?'
I know that sounds fear mongering but does anyone else think that's a possibility?

FermatsTheorem · 11/05/2018 08:14

Not scare mongering. It's always interested me talking to my dad about this how prevalent the worry about "being accosted in the gents" is. Men seem to see the toilets as yet another space where it's perfectly legitimate to try things on sexually. (I certainly remember that when a nightclub in the town I went to university introduced an arrangement where there were men's and women's cubicles either side of a central bank of sinks - and suddenly the toilet went from being this (slightly piss filled) oasis of calm where you could get a bit of space to yourself to becoming just another part of the meat market (my housemates loved this club; I thought it was one of the inner circles of hell).

This is so ubiquitous there was even a joke doing the rounds when I was a student which took the form of a "urinal positioning" questionnaire - 5 stalls, occupied in various permutations when you walked in - where do you stand? The fascinating thing was that the women who looked at it came up with random guesses, while the men's answers were complete social consensus - there was an unwritten set of rules which they all internalised. When we (the women in the group) asked them to explain, the underlying basis seemed to be "don't interrupt a couple who might be cottaging, if you must stand next to someone, do so in such a way it makes a group of three or leaves open the possibility of making a group of three..." The rules were geared round not issuing a tacit invitation to be "hit on".

ISaySteadyOn · 11/05/2018 09:18

Wow. Sorry, no words.

QuentinSummers · 11/05/2018 09:20

fermats Shock unspoken urinal rules! Men have a whole different life!

OP posts:
Ereshkigal · 11/05/2018 09:23

I have just had a horrifying thought that I feel safest to share here. If all toilets do become essentially unisex, how long before 'But you knew people with penises went in there, why did you go in?'
I know that sounds fear mongering but does anyone else think that's a possibility?

Yes. I think the same.

MissMoneyPlant · 11/05/2018 09:46

Men seem to see the toilets as yet another space where it's perfectly legitimate to try things on sexually.

This struck me whilst watching Call the Midwife a few years ago - they had a ridiculous storyline where we were supposed to feel sorry for a man who cheated on his pregnant wife and tried to have sex with another man in the public toilets Hmm. Just made me think about the sense of entitlement to take over a public convenience for your own sex life - lesbians weren't doing that, were they? Between that, drag queens, and Penis News the misogyny amongst gay men became suddenly apparent.

Um... I was thinking about something else earlier, mental health related, just want to write it down/run it by you lot... Blush Erm... I was told by a professional recently that it's very unusual to be suicidal as I am, ie. daily considering whether to continue living, weighing it up, trying so hard to make things better, gritting teeth and pressing on. Apparently it's more usually a sort of sudden crisis point, not a calm ongoing weighing up of things. But thinking about it this is rubbish, surely? The mental health boards here are full of women who are suffering, suicidal, but carrying on, often for others' sake. I just wondered if it was yet another area where the male presentation is viewed as default... With the consequence for women being "you're just making a fuss" and no support as they try desperately to keep going.

MissMoneyPlant · 11/05/2018 09:47

Apologies, don't mean to derail, just came into the pub to get that off my chest!

FermatsTheorem · 11/05/2018 09:57

Flowers Money - I hope you find your way through this period. Do you have people around you who can help?

Also, maybe get yourself a better mental healthcare professional? I'd always been led to believe that suicidal ideation (thinking through the where, when and how) were major danger signals which HCPs were meant to take extremely seriously. Admittedly, there is still a gap between thinking and doing (when I had PND, I used to run through possible ways of doing it, being careful to think through how I could leave DC safe, and how to do it in such a way that it looked like an accident so no-one was left feeling guilty, but an accident such that no-one else was traumatised by being part of it... mercifully although the red flag of thinking about methods was there, I never went through with it). Anyway, do get people in RL to look after you - and to offer the sort of practical support which will make your life easier and take away some of the stresses making you feel this way.

QuentinSummers · 11/05/2018 12:17

I believe that kind of suicidal thinking can be a sign of ocd (disclaimer: not a doctor)
www.intrusivethoughts.org/ocd-symptoms/suicidal-ocd/

Your HCP sounds very dismissive. I have been misdiagnosed by a male GP on the basis of my symptoms being "wrong" and I do think sometimes they think they know best and don't listen to what you are actually saying.

I agree with fermat, you need a second opinion. Try not to worry too much about the thoughts. They are just thoughts at the moment and you are being proactive in getting help. Keep posting if you need to Flowers

OP posts:
WomaninGreen · 11/05/2018 15:35

MissMoneyPlant, there is such a taboo around suicide that even I'm worried replying to you.

I have been through this and I can only think that health professionals find it more alarming when it's discussed rationally than irrationally. I have been tempted to launch into "to be or not to be" but that would have been unfair to my lovely doctor! ( also some scholars would say that hamlet weighing up his options was a sign of madness, I beg to differ)

Re meds I was put in the bracket if "doesn't need counselling, just meds" and I was happy with that (they did give me details of people to call etc if I felt different).

Sometimes we are better thinking this stuff through alone or anonymously on message boards.

Btw I haven't chimed in on the male/female aspect of this debate because none of mine was affected by that, so I can't comment there. I did have a woman doctor though and she was known for being the best in the practice. The day she retired you couldn't move in the surgery for gifts, it looked like some sort of gift shop warehouse! She needed to be cloned Grin

womanformallyknownaswoman · 11/05/2018 17:19

daily considering whether to continue living, weighing it up, trying so hard to make things better, gritting teeth and pressing on.

Judith Herman talks about this in "Trauma and Recovery" (see below) - it's a normal part of recovery. I relate. Horrible place to be and yet a positive sign of progress. Sucks to be there though! If your mental health professional doesn't know about Judith Herman and her work, I would find one who does - her book is like a bible for me that I refer to time and time again, over years. She gets the healing journey, like no-one else I have come across. Are you familiar with her?

The confrontation with despair brings with it, at least transiently, an increased risk of suicide. In contrast to the impulsive self-destructiveness of the first stage of recovery, the patients' suicidality during this second stage may evolve from a calm, flat, apparently rational decision to reject a world where such horrors are possible. Patients may engage in sterile philosophical discussions about their right to choose suicide. it is imperative to get beyond this intellectual defence and to engage the feelings and fantasies that fuel the patient's despair. Commonly the patient has the fantasy that she is already among the dead, because her capacity for love has been destroyed. What sustains the patient through this decent into despair is the smallest evidence of an ability to form loving connections.

womanformallyknownaswoman · 11/05/2018 17:20

FlowersFlowersFlowers

MissMoneyPlant · 12/05/2018 11:39

Oh my goodness, thank you for the replies, and I apologise for worrying anyone. Blush I was literally musing the point, not asking for support... when you're used to thinking about these things it's easy to forget how much it concerns others. Was actually speaking about this with a friend the other day, that it was nice to speak to each other when we both felt down because other people cannot get past the "Arghh they mentioned suicide! Must fix things!" point of view, and actually it's just really nice and helpful to quietly chat about stuff, and the sort of acceptance of how we both feel. I hope that makes sense. Blush

Fermats Your comment made me smile, in a gallows humour type of way... It's not a period, it's my life. Admittedly has been worse recently but picked up a bit now. Smile Actually the professional was generally great - she was concerned about me and understanding, and shocked/trying to explain why so many professionals have been dismissive and misjudged me in the past. The frustrating thing with mental health services is that they are so chronically underfunded that everything is geared towards getting people through a crisis alive, and that's it - there doesn't seem to be any room for the concept that they may not wish to die if they could work on the longterm issues.

Quentin MN led me to finally get a second opinion (well probably a 20th opinion by now..!) and the eventual decision was that ASD was probably lurking there somewhere. And we're back to the "atypical" aka non-male presentation thing again...

WomaninGreen I think most people find it more alarming when discussed rationally - the same may be true for many health professionals. But I've experienced more of the opposite from professionals - like they expect a suicidal person to be obviously emotional, and expect any attempt to be fairly impulsive, so calmy stating how you feel makes them think you are being attention seeking. Adding to this effect is the way that if they do take you seriously, suddenly it's all ambulances and police and A&E... and then nothing. So a huge drama is made and still no actual help at the end of it. Rinse and repeat until you're viewed as a "drama queen".

womanformerlyknownaswoman Oh wow. That could have been written about me. I actually have that book but never finished it, will dig it out. Thank you so much for posting.

TL;DR - mental health services are ridiculous, the women of FWR are awesome, and the bastards are not getting rid of me that easily Wink

WomaninGreen · 13/05/2018 00:02

Is it about underfunding or is it that mental health services will always operate in a certain way?

Weird thing, when I was diagnosed with depression years ago, I told my doctor that meditation and mindfulness made things worse. She was sensible enough not to judge but it was only about ten years afterwards that I started to see studies being done into that problem, often people were being advised to do it when it made them worse, but it takes X amount of time for enough experiences to inform studies and build data etc.

So even if there was more funding, is there an inevitable time lag? And would I trust some kind of "wellness" service? I don't think I would but I am just one person, obvs. Much as I'd like an extra secret superhero identity Grin

Pratchet · 13/05/2018 00:04

Hi, and SMASH THE PATRIARCHY

Pratchet · 13/05/2018 00:05

Apropos of nothing except five whisky on the rocks

WomaninGreen · 13/05/2018 10:53

Hey Pratchet

It's okay, you never need a reason to say those words. Grin

MissMoneyPlant · 13/05/2018 11:15

WomaninGreen Is it about underfunding or is it that mental health services will always operate in a certain way?

I think (this is a pub, yeh? I can lean on the bar and say "I reckon..." without having conducted a sociological study? Grin) that attitudes, at least of individual professionals, are gradually changing. Probably just as a result of time passing and the general societal attitude to emotions and experiences changing, a sort of general awareness of psychological factors even if pop psychology. But there's no services to offer, the whole system is just fire-fighting crises.

However so much about the whole system, the whole conceptualistaion of "mental illness" is messed up! And I really think (um, surely there's psychological evidence for this?!) that people in general sort of take the path of least resistance. So it's easier to believe someone doesn't really need help/go along with other professionals unpleasant views in order to dismiss someone, if it takes a patient off your (impossibly huge) caseload. Actually, there's a thing, they call it "splitting" - supposedly a manipulative act of behalf of the patient who divides staff which causes problems with the staff team. In practice IME this seems to be that some staff have compassion and want to help whilst others are punitive and blaming, and the two can't agree on how to treat the patient... (Read a great blog on this from an ex social worker, who was given all the "difficult" patients but found that treating them humanely and relating to them made them not difficult... and apparently their unflattering views of other staff members were surprisingly perceptive!)

... it was only about ten years afterwards that I started to see studies being done into that problem, often people were being advised to do it when it made them worse, but it takes X amount of time for enough experiences to inform studies and build data etc.

I've had the same issue with mindfulness. Apparently not good for people who've suffered trauma. (Also hate this assumption that people must be thinking wrong/not capable of reflecting on stuff/not trying hard enough. That's how I ended up with incredulous staff baffled that I "have insight" and am fairly sensible about thoughts/reasoning/decisions - "But why are you still not ok?" !!!) I suspect it's the same process at work as that which dismisses women's health issues - the patient is seen as being difficult/making a fuss if something doesn't work.

But, the main problem seems to be that services are simply not designed or run from a psychologically informed perspective. There's stacks of evidence - including really basic stuff about human interaction - that is just ignored. "Psychology" is the remit of psychologists, that patients are sent off to see... other staff range from fairly informed (off their own backs and interest) to glorified prison guards who appear to have had their humanity removed as part of the training. (Which raises another question about the seemingly common psychotic delusion that agents of the state are monitoring the person and poisioning them..!)

Read a great article, but I can't seem to find it now... It explained the problem with needing empirical evidence that a treatment is effective to justify funding it. Say you've invented a new therapy for depression - you have to test it on a large number of patients who have "pure" depression, no complicating factors (potential confounding variables) like other mental health diagnoses, self-harm, being in an abusive relationship... think they have to take into account socioeconomic group as well. And the therapy has to be delivered in such a way that it's the same for everyone in the trial. So therapies that are very concrete and manualised have an advantage over those that take into account circumstances and are more individualised, and a therapy CBT may appear very successful for this unusual subgroup of patients with a specific clear issue and non-complicated lives, but doesn't necessarily translate to the real world.

MissMoneyPlant · 13/05/2018 11:24

Gosh - do you think I might be trans? I really feel it's the real me to lean on the bar with a pint and lecture you all at length... Grin Blush

(ps. Recently read the original, fascinating paper on this study - don't think things have changed much in 45 years, except patients would now be left to fend for themsleves after being pathologised)

Pratchet · 13/05/2018 12:56

Thank you Green

womanformallyknownaswoman · 13/05/2018 16:20

However so much about the whole system, the whole conceptualistaion of "mental illness" is messed up!

When I realised that most of those who get labelled as mentally ill are having normal responses to being targeted and bullied, whilst those causing them to feel crazy actually were the problem was a great day. And those who are the problem never get into the MH system except as some of those doing the diagnosing!! The whole thing is just gas lighting on the whole.

I've had the same issue with mindfulness

Don't get me started on mindfulness - if anyone else suggests it I will put their eyes out!! It's not a one size fits all but all it takes is an academic to make his mark by saying it's the next best thing, and woosh, we are all supposed to fall in mindless line.

The problem is the whole health system don't like smart people who say NO - especially women - so they get treated like whistleblowers.

I said recently to my T that there's hundreds pf people who have jobs on the back on my distress - she didn't like it one bit and winced out loud, but took it - like she's paid to!

Psychology" is the remit of psychologists, that patients are sent off to see... other staff range from fairly informed (off their own backs and interest) to glorified prison guards who appear to have had their humanity removed as part of the training. (Which raises another question about the seemingly common psychotic delusion that agents of the state are monitoring the person and poisioning them..!)

Yep they're onto it - it actually is happening. That's when I feel like taking to hills and going to live in a cave - far safer!!

And CBT - well that should be consigned into the annals of history as a huge practical joke

do you think I might be trans?

oh goddess no - just finding your voice and realising it's not you that's mad but them :)

Need a top-up?

WomaninGreen · 13/05/2018 16:41

Prachet, after watching Black Books - a recent discovery for me - I call Alka Seltzer "fizzy good....make feel nice" a la Bernard Black.

I've actually never used it because it has caffeine in. It's amazing how much stuff has caffeine in Confused