Andrew Marr asking gov minister "So is a trans woman a woman?"

[Payfrozen]

On TV now. He's interviewing Corbyn currently discussing housing.

Oh how jolly D of him.

He's decided at last that he will generously permit women to have a say about their rights that he wants to remove, and in their redefinition.

I shall dash off and bake him a cake. and ice it with beautiful lettering stating that he's a misogynistic, patronising dinosaur of a twat

@Datun

I've written to my MP. Fingers crossed for a proper response. There's got to be a first time, right?!

@Catmint

Well done. Sometimes it's quite cathartic to to get it down on paper. And solidifies how you think.

And don't let it rest if you get a bollocks reply.

Not because I necessarily think you will change their mind, but votes are votes, right? Public opinion is crucial.

And I know they will have had other letters. Virtually very single MP in the country has had a letter.

Everyone needs to write. Be as convincing as you can, but just remember it's also a numbers game.

I'm sure there is a perception, too, along the lines, if I get five letters, that must mean 500 people are worried, because most people don't write.

Cat let us know what your MP says. And do not be afraid to name and shame if they don't listen.

In fact, it might be a bit of a wizard wheeze to let our MPs know that we are talking on mumsnet about them and mumsnet has 12 million unique users per month.

That's an awful lot of votes...

Ha! My MP is Maggie Throup. Let's just say there a a few issues on which we don't see eye to eye.

I will keep trying.

Re my ongoing Facebook discussion, I've said that GRA worries me because predatory ( in a broad sense) people could exploit it for their own purposes. Someone's posted the response below to me:

"There are thousands of Trans women assaulted and murdered all over the world each year, including the UK. On your argument someone who hadn't managed to get through the legal hurdles to get a GRC would not be afforded the support services and safe places available for other women meagre though they are. The existing GRC procedure is presently lengthy and complex and relatively expensive especially for someone without good employment prospects, which is unfortunately the lot of many trans people."

It's confused me. I don't disagree that it is wrong for people to be abused for who they are/ feel they are. Of course I don't, and none of you do either.

Sorry. I'm not articulate or clever. Every plausible argument has me nodding in agreement. I need help to get my brain to the point where I can see these things for myself.

What is the counter/ context I need to know in response to that point, please?

Catmint

1. only 7 trans people have been murdered in the UK in the last 10 years

2. in those last ten years, trans people have murdered more people than trans people have been murdered

3. it's £140 with reductions for low income people. You only need a letter from two doctors (ie GP and gender specialist) to say you have gender dysphoria and you need to provide proof that you have lived as your desired gender for two years (ie provide household bills in your new name, driving licence in your new name, evidence that you've name changed/got a new birth certificate). It's not humiliating or shaming.

In the UK there are more trans identified male perps than there are victims so it is hard to take someone serious who claims the women should be displaced by the trans identified males.

Catmint

This has some stats about safety in the UK and the appropriation of stats regarding trans in countries like Brazil.

mirandayardley.com/en/peter-tatchell-and-the-assassination-of-the-womens-liberation-movement/

Can someone give me a link to the 80% of transwomen are hetero/keep their penis?

I need to use it somewhere

www.lifesitenews.com/news/more-people-are-getting-sex-change-surgeries-than-ever-before-but-its-not-w

15% is the claim there for genital surgery. Most men seem to just want bigger breasts than the hormones can provide.

@Catmint

Well done for pushing back. Stay calm, don't get dragged into rabbit hole nonsense.

The statistic about transwomen being murdered applies to South America, largely Brazil. And the cohort is prostitutes.

Transwomen are no different to women in that situation. Prostitution is incredibly dangerous (and should be addressed, but that's another thread).

In this country (and America, I believe), transitioning actually reduces your chances of being murdered statistically.

People have been fed the line that transwomen are oppressed and get murdered, all the time, so much, that it's difficult to shake that belief.

The screenshot splits the cohort into those with a GRC and those without. But either way it's less than if they had remained men.

TransHobbit

Is it right that you need your spouses permission? Or currently, if you disagree, it is grounds for divorce?

Is that what they mean by spousal veto?

Thanks, TransHobbit. Also, you've reminded me to go and do some more digging on the bridging prescriptions thing, which I've been meaning to do for ages (how many are going to adults and how many to minors).

justgivemetwominutes did you find the stats you needed? I had a quick look and didn't find much.

I found this in the Transgender Health journal

online.liebertpub.com/doi/pdfplus/10.1089/trgh.2017.0028

Surgical stats for this study on p.160 and an interesting discussion.

Forgot to say it was US-based not UK.

Here's another (pro-trans) abstract of another study with a percentage who have had bottom surgery:

link.springer.com/article/10.1007/s13178-017-0295-8

I expect the trans lobby will argue that low uptake of surgery is because of gatekeeping and waiting lists rather than because of AGPs wanting to keep their tackle.

Catmint

As well as pointing out that, as pp have said, in the UK, a TIM is actually far less likely to be murdered than other men, you could just state the obvious:

'No, a man would not be able to access a service provided by and for women to meet women's specific needs. There is nothing unusual about that.'

You could also turn the question back on them:

'If, as you claim, thousands of transwomen are being assaulted and murdered in the UK, why aren't transwomen themselves setting up their own support services and refuges to cater for their own particular needs?'

There are thousands of Trans women assaulted and murdered all over the world each year, including the UK. On your argument someone who hadn't managed to get through the legal hurdles to get a GRC would not be afforded the support services and safe places available for other women meagre though they are. The existing GRC procedure is presently lengthy and complex and relatively expensive especially for someone without good employment prospects, which is unfortunately the lot of many trans people."

I would respond along the lines of "That's right, support services for women are meagre. Did you k ow that two women are murdered every week by their partners. Whereas over the last 10 years, 7 transpeople have been killed in the UK. The women are clearly in greater need of the meagre resources than are the transwomen."

On your argument someone who hadn't managed to get through the legal hurdles to get a GRC would not be afforded the support services and safe places available for other women meagre though they are.

Men should not have womens rights, as men are not women, males are not female, this is not controversial in any way. Its pretty easy to understand once the ridiculous language is taken away.

Thanks all.

I'm away working at the moment so haven't had chance to respond. The poster has posted 2 lengthy lectures addressed to me but I haven't read closely yet. Once I'm back home I will pick it up.

I really appreciate your support. You've given me confidence & I am learning.

I think I will push back on this point using your guidance then withdraw from the discussion as I expect most people will have stopped reading, & I seriously doubt that facts will change the person's mind.

There are thousands of Trans women assaulted and murdered all over the world each year, including the UK."

There really aren't. As pp figures show, there isn't even one whole trans person (male or female) murdered in the U.K. each year. Hyperbolic idiocy. I hope the MP didn't write that response herself, or you have big problems.

Sorry I misread your post. The person posting on Facebook is an idiot.