Andrew Marr asking gov minister "So is a trans woman a woman?"

[Payfrozen]

On TV now. He's interviewing Corbyn currently discussing housing.

there's no such thing as society; only individuals.... to paraphrase Thatcher

If a Conservative said "The whole point has to be about the identity and rights of the individual" the left would be shouting about the nasty party and Thatcher's 'no such thing as society'. What the hell is Corbyn doing coming out with such right wing statements?

X-posted with everyone

Gender is a protected characteristic. So it should work both ways.

I can’t say I’m a 90 year old, gay Asian Hindu male because I feel like it.

A lot of lefty men really don't like women at all, and they like women who disagree with them even less.

I wonder if this is an extension of The Nice Guy phenomena?

"The whole point has to be about the identity and rights of the individual..."

How can you pin the whole act on the rights of a tiny minority against 51% of the population?

How can they not see the dangers here? Surely when new legislation is considered, the pros and cons are scrutinised? Not only will they NOT do this, they are not acknowledging that a vast amount of us are worried.

No one has addressed our concerns.

Thanks for the support everyone. I enjoy reading this group and I’ve learnt so much.

I really believe that gender stereotyping has a lot to answer for too.

I had a conversation with a friend last year that told me she believes in trans children as she knew a little boy (aged about 4) who loved to wear dresses, play with dolls and spend time in nursery with girls. She wouldn’t have it that maybe that’s just what he likes and it’s society that has decided that this is for girls, not a 4 year old boy!

I had a conversation with a friend last year that told me she believes in trans children as she knew a little boy (aged about 4) who loved to wear dresses, play with dolls and spend time in nursery with girls.

This is my son. He is 3 though. he is not trans, he just likes pretty things. Was actually asked once at nursery when picking him up by a parent if he is fucking trans. I nearly bit her head off.

LeslieKnoppfan

Most of my gay male friends did this as nippers. It doesn’t mean they are gender confused. In fact they love being gay men very much. They were playing with gender. I had a bunch of toy cars as a kid, and was obsessed with helicopters and tractors. I’m perfectly happy as a woman. It’s just silly to be using children as a way to push this forward. It’s actually really regressive.

How have we confused everything.

1. why are the left being so right-wing and identitarian about this one issue?

2. if we accept that the identity and rights of the individual are the priority here, then why does this entail allowing the rights and identity of individual TIMs to obliterate the rights and identity of individual women?

Do you reckon we could get Corbyn on here for a webchat?

Last time he spoke about jam and answered quite a few question from posters, who were new and only had a few posts.

Tallulah very good questions.

It's not about identity and rights of the individual: it's about men's rights trumping women's rights.

I am delighted for anyone to dress any way they want, wear make up or not, have high heels or not, choose any name they want, live any way they want and have the freedom to do it without any effect on their legal rights. That's individual freedom I'll gladly campaign for.

But when I am required to put my objective, scientifically verifiable reality aside and lie to indulge the subjective reality of someone with a penis, I am being required by Corbyn, as a woman, to provide service to men with risks and penalties if I don't. No. The answer is no. Not on your fucking life.

There are no trans men shouting and threatening and dictating to men about what they can call themselves and what a man is, and legally compelling them to hand over their reality, because lets face it they are biological women with no sense of entitlement over what men are allowed to do, say and have. This is about ranking men over women and compelling women to provide service. Which is, by definition, oppression.

No, not going along with that.

Actually Asgardianmale, I think maybe you've gone too far and are actually going into transphobia. The GRA has largely been fine the way it is, and really no one should be saying how anyone can dress or present themselves. Yes there is a disagreement abound about definitions and the potential for unintended (or maybe intended) consequences of self id, but you are being unnecessarily hateful about those for whom gender dysphoria is a real painful part of their lives, including those who do consider themselves their birth sex but presenting as the opposite sex. It's certainly not a disease.

The Times are covering the Jeremy Corbyn support for self ID. Very poor article as it fails to explain that it's self ID as the issue.

www.thetimes.co.uk/edition/news/trans-women-should-be-treated-as-women-says-corbyn-g36fd0gfs

Myown a large proportion of people under the trans umbrella (a definition created by the trans community) do not have gender dysphoria and trans ideology is that it is transphobic to imply it's an automatic or necessary part of being trans.

MyOwnShed

A GRC, although intended to ease the life of men with gender dysphoria, certainly does not preclude cross dressing fetishists applying for it.

When I first started read about this stuff a few years ago, there were tips and tricks on the Internet on how to fool your therapist into believing you had gender dysphoria, rather than a fetish.

The problem with the entire issue is that both gender dysphoria and a cross dressing fetish are not objectively identifiable or verifiable.

There are no tests, because it's a disassociative delusion.

Diagnosis is entirely reliant on what the person says.

I can distinctly remember one, where he said something along the lines of, let's face it, we would never get treatment if our therapists thought we were getting turned on by women's panties.

I guess I was just being brief in reply to the poster upthread in saying the GRA was largely okay to date but I do also have concerns that it is open to abuse, especially with the recent upsurge of tr activism. I wouldn't want it revoked but would hope that there can be safeguards on it being an open door to fetishists. Not sure how.

(I follow your posts a lot and do appreciate clarifications, you know much more about this than me).

Also, I find that that the whole concept of the way all the trans women I have seen / met dress is in no way compariable to me.

I rarely wear makeup, wear dresses on the odd occasion - odd enough that people will comment on it. So am I not a woman then because I don’t wear make up or wear dresses?

Aged 10, starting my period and having to use the teachers bathroom at junior school due to lack of facilities are part of what makes me a woman. Giving up sport at 14 as I didn’t want boys to see me in PE pants. Working in sales and feeling like I have to flirt with men sometimes to get business.

These are all things that are about being a woman and whilst we spend all our time discussing trans issues we are not assisting girls and women out there today to reach their full potential and to be proud of being a woman.

MyOwnShed

The TRAs call trans people who are gender dysphoric, or who say that you must he gender dysphoric to be considered trans, Truscum.

Not a very nice word, is it?

Why?

Because these are not very nice men. Their vitriol extends not only to actual women but also to those who are actually diagnosed as believing they are in the wrong sexed body.

In fact, if you have any legitimacy to your claim of being A Woman, they despise you.

I find that that the whole concept of the way all the trans women I have seen / met dress is in no way compariable to me.

I believe this is at the root of their hatred of us.

Even without pretty dresses, make up, manicured nails, long hair and all the superficial acoutrements of femininity that they gather and adopt so voraciously, they will never be even half as much of a woman as the least 'feminine' of us.

Please don't side me with the TRAs! I'm for women's rights (as in born women) not to be compromised, think transwomen are transwomen but hope that men and women with gender dysphoria can live without harassment and abuse. I replied to a poster upthread who I though had gone too far, that's all.

MyOwnShed

No worries.

It's quite evident to everybody that the loopholes left in the GRA have allowed it to be exploited by men for whom it was never intended.

It's a horribly imprecise piece of legislation. Because it is based on subjective opinion.

How the people writing it couldn't see this coming, God only knows. Feminists spotted it immediately
(Sends up a little prayer for those feminists).

The problem we now have is the realisation that gaining a GRC is based on nothing more than what the person says.

So how to keep the chancers, predators, rapists, paedophiles and autogynephiles out, but keep genuine transsexuals in?

It certainly and self evidently isn't by removing the gatekeeping ( so one would think, obviously.)

And, I suspect, that if this reaches the wider public, Parliament will be furiously wondering what on earth they can do now. How to put the genie back in the bottle.

If I was a canny, manipulative politician, I say self id isn't law at the moment. And leave it at that temporarily.

Meanwhile, I would encourage newspapers to write gender critical articles to alert the wider public in order to garner support. For my subsequent U-turn.

Along the lines of 'we had been led to believe', 'exploiting the legislation was not how it was intended', 'Ian Huntley! Shock, horror', 'we need to work with key stakeholders to ensure everyone's protections are met'. Blah blah.

Then let the general public take care of the rest.

As soon as people realise that most of these activists are alpha male fetishists, cultural protocols will change. People will begin to understand the difference between genuine transsexuals and others.

I'm sure other people have a different solution. To repeal the whole thing and keep ALL men out. Which frankly, I don't disagree with.

But if I was asked for a 'spin doctor's' solution, that might be my first suggestion.

Although, to be honest, I think it might have gone too far now.

If politicians are so out of touch with the general public that they are prepared to say, on record, that transwomen are women,
they are going to get a very rude awakening when the full implications are revealed to the public.

MyOwnShed The GRA is not largely fine the way it is.

Those that are diagnosed with gender dysphoria (and called truscum) generally accept they are male - so I'm a bit confused why they need a law enabling them to live a lie in stealth.

With the advent of same-sex marriage and pension equality the GRA is no longer necessary to access these human rights.

And the prisoner that is currently on hunger strike to gain access to a female prison (the one with over 30 convictions for his cross-dressing fetish, breaking into girls bedrooms to wank in their underwear) - he has a diagnosis of gender dysphoria. That shows how robust it is!