Women come last in Labour's deranged victim hierarchy - Rod Liddle in The Spectator

[AttillaThePun]

No punches pulled (but no names named either, probably sensible):

www.spectator.co.uk/2018/01/women-come-last-in-labours-deranged-victim-hierarchy/

Kiss, I never knew he was a Labour member until I just saw your post. I'd just assumed he was a Tory -probably from his obvious desire to offend and the lack of virtue signalling that the likes of OJ manage. Good thing about the Feminism board is you learn something new most days!

Yes the article was snarky and yes it might piss off some left leaning types, but it's out there in language that your average person will understand. We don't need to convert the TRAs and radfems in the twitter bubble, we need to convince the rest of the world.

Hopefully a good few people will read this and go WTF.

This bit I think is important, and will speak to a lot of people...

Do you care? It is tempting not to. This is the way identity politics always ends, with competing victims ripping each other limb from limb

But I still carry a torch for that second-wave feminism which is now under the cosh.

To have men now insisting that the feminists, the Terfs, are the oppressors seems to me pushing it a bit

Kiss I VOTED FOR BLAIR. I am a Blairite. I was conflating some of the people who comment in the Spectator plus some of Liddle's own past views plus the evangelical right wing. Just ignore me. We do have to bridge the gap. I did not mean to derail.

@KissMaCiss. You've done good. I'm all for reaching out across political divides.

This is exactly why transactivists want #nodebate. They know full well that dragging their behaviour and the underpinning ideology into the light is not favourable to them.

This man is famously misogynist, racist and homophobic.

I don't see any point in pretending that is not the case.

KissMaCiss
Feminists have always disagreed on the way forward - that's because we are not an oppressive, bigoted group like the trans activists.
I understand people who are uncomfortable and respect their right to disagree and to state it.
In this instance, I think the piece is really useful and as I said before, we are going to need to collectively 'hold our noses' or our arguments will remain within our own echo chambers and this MUST be in the public domain.
#muchdebate

However, I can see I wasn't in this conversation before and coming in after the event to say this is not 100% positive from my POV is not helpful.

I will bow out.

nauticant
Totaly agree.

Kiss getting this into mainstream debate is brilliant. Don't feel downhearted. Lots of comments here are very pleased/supportive.

I normally hate RL's writing but thought this was great. Good for him that he's prepared to say something unpopular but important. If lefties aren't doing it that says something about them not you.

Also his audience have influence over what MPs decide about GRC changes. It won't be a decision Labour can make alone.

It would be great to also get a moderate left voice on this. And a trans person supporting our side.

Sadly a lot of people in the uk are a little bit misogynistic, homophobic, racist, or a combination of the above. Even a lot of people who are left leaning have dodgy views on at least one issue.

These are the general public who need to know what is happening, and articles like this are how they find out.

Miranda Yardley is an ally. I’ve been softening Nick Cohen, but he’s meh about it. I’ll keep working. I’m about exposure, not brownie points on where the piece is. The more voices across all divides are important.

@KissMaCis - thank you so much for getting this out there.

Much as I disagree with Ron Liddle on a lot of issues, this is an extremely good article, not least because (as other posters have said) he actually gets it - he sees that this is anti self-ID, not anti-trans and clearly, succinctly and fairly articulates the issue.

Another centrist here, btw! Little OJ's latest hate figure. Much as I hated what Blair did with the Iraq War - which drove me from Labour to vote Green in the following election, and despite my huge dislike for PFIs, I massively appreciate him making Labour electable after the Thatcher years. (I am old enough to remember Militant Tendency, Derek Hatton, Michael Foot et al. And the winter of discontent. And the way that created the backlash conditions which enabled Thatcher to eviscerate trade unions while the public cheered.)

#yesdebate

All viewpoints welcome

And a round of applause from me for KissMyCis' press-wrangling abilities

Actually, one of the things that bothered me a little about the crowdfunder was Jennifer James refusing to talk to certain newspapers about it, and also telling one bloke not to bother donating if he was a Tory. I don't think demonising the right is helpful. You get left wing twats and right wing twats, and you get good people on both sides too. My mum, for example, always votes Tory and routinely walks round handing out her money to homeless people and donating to every charity going. Of course the very language we use (left and right) places them as polar opposites, which is so simplistic.

I think it's bloody brilliant - most people I work with and the vast majority of my extended family will view Rod Liddle as a voice of reason, however much we like this. These are the people who every day make small decisions that can prioritise transwomen over women in lots of small ways that eventually erode our rights because they haven't thought about the impact beyond live and let live.

No amount of feminist reasoning is going to change their opinions, things like this and outrage over sports are the only things I've found to bridge the gap in the conversation. We can't win this fight through ideological debates in the Labour party alone - we need the weight of public opinion behind us to make them realise that their current trajectory is electoral suicide.

it is very good that Rod Liddle was happy to write about this, and he does do it well. And the Spectator has such a huge mainstream coverage. I am sorry to have been disparaging Kiss. Asking for favours is hard work and it's really great that this is there.

Yes - similarly with my dad. Votes Tory. First thing he did on hearing that Cameron had promised to bring Syrian families over here from refugee camps (still waiting for that one to happen) was go to the local council offices and say "I have a huge house - if you need to house some people temporarily, here's my address." Also one of the most staunch feminist allies I've ever known (which he puts down to being brought up by a single mum, marrying a ferociously intelligent, independent woman, and having 2 daughters...)

That was to @Collidascope

Isn't "Divide And Conquer" how the majority of battles are won?

Kiss, I think you're doing a great job.

I also think it's brilliant that he mentions Zoe Kemp's comparison with the Paedophile Information Exchange, which a lot of us have brought up every time Owen Jones starts his tedious moralising about being on the wrong side of history. I'd like to think that even in Jones's self-satisfied mind, there might be a little glimmer of horror as it slowly dawns on him that, far from being on the right side of history, in a few years' time he will have to apologise for his association with something so fundamentally wrongheaded and dangerous as the current transactivism movement.

Wouldn't that just be satisfying. Oh so satisfying.

And I think the article is great - it's a coup to get journalists across the political spectrum to wade in. In order to start debating and to push back against what's happening, we need to normalise discussing the issue. Because at the moment, we are still not allowed iyswim. Every sensible discussion is drowned out by a wave of aggressive victimhood.

Tallulah: "Say what you like, he's quoted some actual women on this issue. Nobody else has given our viewpoint a platform at all."

Absolutely. The contrast with the Guardian couldn't be more stark.

By the way, I'm surprised Nick Cohen isn't that interested. He loathes Momentum, and he loathes Corbyn, so I'd have thought this would provide him with a terrific opportunity to attack both, if nothing else.

It seems a bit obvious that if we want everyone to agree with us we are going to end up with a lot of different people agreeing with us.

Including people we may not otherwise have anything in common with.

But surely that’s better than them
a) not agreeing or
b) not caring or
c) calling us hysterical bigots?

Good going Kiss. The more attention this gets in the mainstream press the better, I think.

Sure it’ll generate a lot of heat, but there’s bound to be some light in there too, right?

On reflection in fact, assuming that everyone (especially women) agrees with everything loud people shout in their party is what has got Labour into this mess in the first place.