How can we work towards a constructive debate about all things transgender?

[TruthIsNotHate]

It's absolutely needed, but I just can't see how we can get to a position where it's possible.

Start a government petition first off the bat. Has anyone done that?

I haven't, I'm not sure whether anyone else has. It would need to be very well written - I sometimes read these, and they start off well with you agreeing with their point, then they waffle off into grey areas, before you decide that you can't actually sign the petition because you don't agree with whatever it was they were on about at the end.

Drop the transwomen are women bullshit. It's factually incorrect and a dealbreaker for me.

And cis can get to fuck.

I'm not sure. There seems to be an impasse between 'transwomen are women' and 'transwomen are transwomen'. I don't know if it's even possible to have a compromise, such as legislation/guidance with exemptions for this that and the other to retain female spaces etc.

I find it quite ironic that it's taken as so very binary by TRAs, when actually a third space or other accomodations could be a much more realistic solution, if with extra practicalities to deal with.

Get our points together and I’ll ask a friend to write it for us.

An end to oppositional politics and a willingness to compromise.

I don't see it happening though.

The government and all legal bodies need to decide what the words "woman" and "man" actually mean. Will they continue with dictionary definition or other definition.

You can't have a debate if one side is #nodebate

If that's dropped then maybe we can start to debate.

First we need a constructive debate about women. Actual women, who we are, what makes us what we are, what the statistics look like for us, what our biology means.

After that, we can then debate what it is that transgender people feel they have in common with us such that they should be able to prevent us from being recognised as a group.

I don't think we'll ever have a constructive debate, tbh. I've participated in hundreds and there simply is no argument that trans people and their supporters can, or will ever offer.

It's like debating someone's belief that 2+2=5.

Sadly I think we live in a very polarised world at the moment and constructive debate on many issues seem to out of reach. I care so much about women's rights, read that as women's rights, not transgender rights, but I feel I might have to disengage with all this because what is going on is such a headfuck that it is starting to feel like giving up is the only way to protect my mental health.

I know there's been so much abuse and shutting down of attempts to debate but has there been anything like a list of 'you're saying this, we don't think that'll work because of this, how about this instead?' Like for prisons for example. Offer reasonable solutions to get the talk about specifics rather than sweeping catch all principals (which are important but not going to move things forward on their own).

Whilst men are verbally and physically assaulting women there is no way forward.

I care about women’s rights, I care about transgender rights, it takes nothing from me - someone who has the luck of feeling right in their own skin - to call someone she if they want me to or accept someone for themselves whatever clothes they’re wearing. I don’t feel threatened by men in mixed sex bathrooms so why should I feel threatened by a transgender woman in bathroom? I don’t understand the anti-trans sentiment I see on here, I think it’s unnecessary and ignorant.

The important thing is not to convince transgender activists, but to convince the government. Spelling things out in a petition that might be supported by the general public. The key thing being that people should be defined by sex rather than gender? With transgender people being protected against discrimination - they already are, but the definition could be changed.

Good for you Paperdoll, you do not speak for me, or for my life experience.

I really think it's ignorant to think that your experience will be the same as other women's and that you can speak for them. There are plenty well informed women who will argue the practicalities of self identification. A million other threads in fact. I have not witnessed transphobia, merely a concern regarding practicalities over a very very complex issue.

Exactly throughtheforest

We need to force a debate. Petition parliament is the best way.

How do you debate a religious belief? That's what "trans women are women" is. Facts that contradict the person's belief are then a test of their faith which they will attempt to rise to.

@Whatnextxx I tend to agree with you on this. Safe space seems to be the deal breaker.

Maybe you don't debate whether 'Transwomen are women though'; maybe you just state clearly and politely why you believe that they're not, and instead debate possible implications of self-identification etc 🤔.

I don't know if it's possible to bypass the belief question but we're not going to get anywhere without doing so, because as it is it's like arguing about transubstantiation.

Believer - This wafer is literally the body of Christ
Unbeliever - No it's not, I met the woman who baked it earlier
Believer - Heathen! Repent!

But with gender.

Ok, so we can't debate with TRAs (because they won't), but we could debate with other transwomen and transmen, and with other women and men too.

So agree to disagree (with someone making the decisions, not the shouty twitter people), but work out individual, sensible reasons against problematic areas of self id, and put forward alternatives if there are any.

(and real life shouty and punchy people, didn't mean to minimise that)

I think that the practical details of access to spaces etc for trans people can be debated but not the question of whether people are or are not the sex they claim to be, because the answer to that is "no" and giving any ground there will undermine any other efforts.

(Also it's not true.)