Meet the Other Phone. Protection built in.

Meet the Other Phone.
Protection built in.

Buy now

Please or to access all these features

Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

How can we work towards a constructive debate about all things transgender?

209 replies

TruthIsNotHate · 24/01/2018 22:14

It's absolutely needed, but I just can't see how we can get to a position where it's possible.

OP posts:
ladyballs · 25/01/2018 22:54

Well said Barracker

Catabogus · 25/01/2018 22:57

'Sex change' is a lie that is hurting people

I fully agree. But, tactically, are we ever likely to bring the moderate general public on board with this? Those who have long accepted that old-style male transsexuals who have had "sex changes" are, to all intents and purposes, women - and vulnerable women at that? Are they likely to be convinced to oppose self-ID if we start from such a radical position?

BeyondWitchbitchterf · 25/01/2018 23:24

Marking my place for the morning

HeatedCatFurniture · 25/01/2018 23:45

I'm just getting angrier and angrier about this. When someone 'assigned female at birth' gets into Eton, or becomes a member of the Garrick Club, or sits in the Oval Office in a baseball cap, or tells the man trying to rape them in an outhouse in India that it won't work because they're a man, then we can talk. Until then, I am not buying any of this shit.

YetAnotherSpartacus · 26/01/2018 00:24

I think we need to start over. I think we need a watertight legal definition of females that can never be opted in to by males, ever. Enforceable boundaries for women that can be applied against all men. And strong protections against discrimination and abuse for men who wish they were women, but are not

In a way, I agree. I think it is a shame that the old honour system with transwomen will be broken down, though, and they will be forced to categorise themselves as a separate group in order to receive protection.

This might seem off the wall, but I also think we need a strong review of medical ethics.

AngryAttackKittens · 26/01/2018 00:26

*The thing is, regardless of politicians and of postmodernism’s abdication of “Truth,” most people have a sense of fair play. Just like damn near everyone knows what women are, and they also know that there are enough men who are a threat to girls and women that women have to take care. I bet there’s not one man in the UK who hasn’t, at some time in his life, said to a girl or woman, “Be careful,” and both he and she knew exactly who he was warning her against.

The question isn’t, What is a woman? Because that’s not up for debate — everyone really does know the answer. A woman is the one who gets pregnant, and a man is the one who impregnates. Arguing hypothetical “what if’s” about infertility, menopause, or genetic disorders is just sophistry. Without impossible leaps forward in neurobiology, arguments for brain sex have the exact same validity as 19th century arguments that women’s “wandering” uteri caused hysteria.

People also know there isn’t such a creature as a half-man half-woman. One or the other, that’s it. When Fallon Fox fractured Tamika Brent’s skull, no one had to ask if he was on hormones or if he still had his dick, in order to understand what they were seeing. Everyone knew that regardless of his hormonal state or the configuration of his genitals, they were watching a man bash a woman’s head in.

Julie Bindel had the exact right answer to Jane Fae’s sophistry when she said, “You don’t know you were born!”

The question really is: why on earth should men have the right to decide they’re women? Never once budging from the position that everyone knows what a woman is.*

This is part of the reason why I'm not willing to play along with the softly softly approach. At the moment some part of the public has been conned into thinking that all trans people are part of a group that's more at risk than women as a group. That assumption rests partly on misogyny (always easy to brush women's needs and concerns aside) and partly on the idea that "trans woman" means "dysphoric feminine gay man who's already had his penis removed or intends to do so as soon as possible". I can see why most people feel concern for those particular trans women. Those trans women are now a minority within their own movement, though, and it's vital that we get that information out to the public, because right now when people are asked how they feel about trans access to sex segregated spaces that's who most of them are picturing, and they have no idea that the legal changes being made will also open the doors to Stefonknee and the bloke running female orgasm workshops and Danielle Muscato and that Tara dude who beat up the woman at Speakers Corner a host of other assorted MRAs and fetishists. And most of the media is failing to make the distinction too (or possibly actively trying to suppress that information in the case of The Guardian). So if we want to stop these laws going through then we need to make sure that the public knows exactly what they're signing off on. Which involves letting them know that if the proposed legal framework is adopted, Danielle Muscato has just as much right to access women's sex segregated spaces as the dysphoric feminine gay men that they're picturing.

Talking about fetishism and MRA style politics among trans activists can come across as "mean" and hostile. There's no way to avoid that, because we're telling people something that they may not want to hear and there are a lot of groups/individuals with a vested interest in stopping us from telling people those things. These conversations are going to get ugly. Lots of women are angry that things have gotten to this point in the first place, and that's going to come across in the way they speak about these issues. Women are allowed to be angry.

It's one thing to strategize about how best to present our points in a policy document or a news article, but I really don't think we should be trying to stifle the way women speak to each other on a feminist forum about how they feel about this situation.

Datun · 26/01/2018 00:27

Just catching up with the thread.

Some excellent suggestions.

I, too, can feel any kind of a compromise as unacceptable.

Partly because of the Overton window, but partly because it just isn't.

This would definitely explain the aggressive campaigning by transactivists to make it self certification only. If therapists had started denying a diagnosis/certificate to AGP individuals.

^^ this is what started it, I believe.

Historically AGP individuals were denied treatment. The NHS wasn't about finance a fetish.

At which point it switched from transsexual to transgender.

If you identifying as a woman is a feeling and not a medical diagnosis, you can easily disguise a fetish as a feeling.

Legitimising transgender not transsexual started the ball rolling with regards to the desperation to access women's spaces.

And, of course, the party line is that you actually don't need gender dysphoria to be trans.

The born in the body narrative has been accepted without question, to the point where it doesn't have to be backed up by any kind of dysphoria.

Saying you can't be trans
without gender dysphoria is transphobic.

It's such a fucking stitch up.

AngryAttackKittens · 26/01/2018 00:27

Would be great if I could get the bold feature to work consistently...

AngryAttackKittens · 26/01/2018 00:31

This would definitely explain the aggressive campaigning by transactivists to make it self certification only. If therapists had started denying a diagnosis/certificate to AGP individuals

There have always been therapists who denied a diagnosis for this reason. There was one 20-ish years ago in California that hit the news because when the (younger, female) therapist didn't furnish the desired diagnosis as quickly as the patient wanted he shot her.

GuardianLions · 26/01/2018 00:31

I got what you meant kittens

GuardianLions · 26/01/2018 00:42

The reason for the reclassification of dysphoria from being a mental illness by the NHS must be because of terrifying narcissists who will stop at nothing to get their way.

Such an enormous organisation officially lying like that, eludes to an absolutely staggering scale of intimidation and threats of medical professionals behind the scenes.

I know a psychologist who was advised to never fight someone with a personality disorder because they will not stop until they have ruined your reputation and career and you can never practice again. Just give them what they want quickly and extricate yourself.

Too many practitioners, terrified for themselves, must have betrayed their own consciences in the name of self-preservation to end up where we are now.

I agree a review of medical ethics needs to happen, to actually empower medical professionals to stand up to these arseholes.

AngryAttackKittens · 26/01/2018 00:47

They're in danger of losing their medical licenses if they don't play along, in some areas. So in order to turn this train around we're going to have to convince the NHS to protect therapists and doctors who get caught in the crosshairs of a patient's narcissistic rage syndrome.

Datun · 26/01/2018 00:49

As far as I know gender dysphoria is still considered a mental disorder under the DSM-V. I know that's an American publication. And I know they changed it from gender identity disorder to gender dysphoria.

And it's all because of pressure from trans-activists.

I'm aghast that the NHS have caved to the pressure to this extent.

And I still can't see the long game.

Removing the criteria of gender dysphoria, logically, will remove treatment.

I'm absolutely certain that trans-activists don't think this will happen. It's no fun being a fetishist if you can't have hormones to grow boobs.

And we know that genuine transsexuals fully approve of the gatekeeping.

So there is very definite catch in there somewhere that I'm missing.

AngryAttackKittens · 26/01/2018 00:52

To expand - in general we want the NHS to take patient complaints seriously, right? But you can't take complaints from a patient with a personality disorder at face value, because they can and will twist everything to suit the interpretation of reality that gets them what they want. Therapists know this. Do the people responsible for handling complaints, though? And given the current model of trans healthcare, are personality disorders being properly diagnosed and noted in patients' files? I feel like that last part isn't happening at all.

GuardianLions · 26/01/2018 01:00

Right kittens - PD people are absolute experts in manipulating the different complaints procedures, playing agents off against each-other, flattery and flavour of the month, an instinct for everyone's personal weaknesses to exploit, finding loopholes in policies, spending more time than anyone else can spare on obsessing .... they are such fuckers.

AngryAttackKittens · 26/01/2018 01:03

Once you've dealt with a person who has one of what were formerly called the Cluster B disorders you recognize the behavior immediately when you see it again, and it's so frustrating watching people get pulled in to their manipulative bullshit. I'd hate to have to deal with someone like that as a claims department.

GuardianLions · 26/01/2018 01:12

Yes and if you have experienced it - you know that people who haven't are completely clueless, so it is hard to rally support. Clueless people will suggest 'benefit of the doubt' and other ludicrous things - and you feel like you are in an Alfred Hitchcock movie - disbelieved by everyone while they clean up and leave you a shell of your former self!

AngryAttackKittens · 26/01/2018 01:20

I've been saying for years that TRAs are gaslighting feminists and I don't think that's unrelated to the higher than average rates of NPD in that community. But yeah, to people lucky enough to have never dealt with someone like that it's easy to be all "oh you're just being unkind to this poor unhappy person".

GuardianLions · 26/01/2018 01:22

Indeed.

PracticallyTerfectInEveryWay · 26/01/2018 01:38

Still trying to get my head around the medical aspects of this. It's frightening if medical professionals have been bullied into line.

Datun I've just copied and pasted this off the actual NHS website at www.nhs.uk/conditions/gender-dysphoria/

"Gender dysphoria is a recognised medical condition, for which treatment is sometimes appropriate. It's not a mental illness"

So if it is classified as a physical condition presumably someone can still get their hormones and surgery on the NHS.

Landsendmum · 26/01/2018 01:39

This is a completely sterile debate. It should not even exist. Transgender is a completely separate issue from being female. Or male.
As an example, would anyone want to look back 37 years to the infamous Bristol 'it' toilets? That was a furore which erupted before many contributors on here were even born.
Why even bother to debate this very old subject?

AngryAttackKittens · 26/01/2018 01:56

Kind of OT but my impression was that this group skewed older than that.

Datun · 26/01/2018 01:57

That's s interesting PracticallyTerfectInEveryWay

This is the definition of medical condition.

*Medical condition: A disease, illness or injury; any physiologic, mental or psychological condition or disorder

It's not an injury or presumably a disease or illness. So that leaves mental or psychological disorder.

And if they can still get treatment, it rather begs the question of why they want it changed. Presumably to stop people from saying they have a mental illness.

Except, using the definition of medical condition, it doesn't.

Either way, it does clear up the motivation to at least blur the lines.

AngryAttackKittens · 26/01/2018 02:00

If it isn't a mental health condition, and it can't be a medical condition if there are no physical diagnostic criteria, then why is the NHS paying for it?

Should have stuck with "dysphoria is a mental health condition", but then the fetishists and MRAs would have to admit that they don't have it.

thebewilderness · 26/01/2018 04:44

For some it is a fetish and for others it is a belief that no one actually believes.
Can you mandate belief?
Can you codify into law the idea that some people can mind over matter themselves out of material reality and into the opposite sex and must be treated accordingly?
It is like transubstantiation. A belief that no one actually believes.
Will you allow people to drug and mutilate children based on this belief that no one believes?

Please create an account

To comment on this thread you need to create a Mumsnet account.

This thread is closed and is no longer accepting replies. Click here to start a new thread.

Swipe left for the next trending thread