FT investigation: Men only fundraiser and sexual harrassment

[RedToothBrush]

amp.ft.com/content/075d679e-0033-11e8-9650-9c0ad2d7c5b5?__twitter_impression=true
Sexual misconduct allegations
Men Only: Inside the charity fundraiser where hostesses are put on show
FT investigation finds groping and sexual harassment at secretive black-tie dinner

It is for men only. A black tie evening, Thursday’s event was attended by 360 figures from British business, politics and finance and the entertainment included 130 specially hired hostesses.

All of the women were told to wear skimpy black outfits with matching underwear and high heels. At an after-party many hostesses — some of them students earning extra cash — were groped, sexually harassed and propositioned.

The event has been a mainstay of London’s social calendar for 33 years, yet the activities have remained largely unreported — unusual, perhaps, for a fundraiser of its scale.

Hats off to the FT for sending two undercover reporters

Your belief, Brilliant, that you are entitled to judge women wherever you go is one indicator that you may be a sexist arsewipe.

Easily solved mistake: don't make comments which could (even remotely) be construed as sexual.

If you can manage not to be inadvertently sexual towards men, then you can manage it towards women too. Same skills.

Fact of the matter is, some women were paid 15 quid an hour and treated poorly for that money, even though for most it was probably the first time they'd done that gig

Some men paid ks for tickets, and it was the 30th one, so they knew what they were getting into.

I know who's at fault here, who were the people who should have known better, and it wasn't the women.

Nobody said 'entitled to judge women', I said a man can find a woman attractive and say so (and vice versa) without it being threatening or objectifying - but thanks to the types of men that DO treat women this way, it makes for a more uncertain atmosphere amongst perfectly decent people.

The similarity is with the feeling that men can have when taking their child to a park, or if their natural instinct to tend to a hurt child is curbed by the fear of being a man approaching a child. Many men feel this.

This is what happens when the 'bad' guys actions affect the rest of decent society and it causes people to stem their own natural behaviours. I wouldn't dream of walking behind a woman in a dark car park because I understand the anxiety that might cause. That anxiety isn't created by me, it's created by those relative few that attack women.

In the same way, the nauseating sexual comments made by these men can make perfectly decent men reluctant to say they find someone attractive for fear of it being judged in precisely the way people have done above.

I said a man can find a woman attractive and say so
That is what sharing your judgment of women is, d00d. That is what entitlement looks like.

Just keep digging, Brilliant!

'Don't make comments that can even be remotely construed as sexual'?

That's the problem right there. That's the fear some perfectly reasonable men have. 'You look fantastic in that outfit' can suddenly turn a compliment in the words of some sordid sex pest. I find that a crying shame, and I DO blame SOME men for getting us into that situation.

Those few men create repercussions for the rest. I think I'm allowed to lament that.

Which do you disagree with?

a) A man can find a woman attractive
b) A man can say so (note I did not say he has a right to, or should do so), merely that it really ought to be possible without people assuming it's some loaded sexual precursor.
c) Both of the above?

That is what sharing your judgment of women is
Judgment of women? No, it's an individual attraction to a specific person. When that happens, neither party should feel particular afraid to say it.

There's a world of difference between a man telling every woman in a short skirt (we don't need to repeat what they might say), and one who finds a specific lady attractive as everyday people do. But because of the ill-behaviour of some, the normal behaviours of others are affected, not always for the better.

Look, in the unlikely event you really are asking for Miss Manners style social advice, rather than shit-stirring to amuse yourself , allow me to assist you.

Miss Manners writes:

Dear Brilliant of Mumsnet,
I was distressed to hear of your predicament. Sadly, based on your own account of your behaviour, you clearly have no idea how to conduct social interactions. Sadly, it is my task to explain to you that you are engaged in behaviour which we in the etiquette business describe as digging your way to fucking Australia.

Fortunately, there is an easy solution right at your fingertips. Don't do it. Talk about the weather. Ask what they watched on TV last night. Say how useful the report they produced on XYZ potential client/merger/acquisition was. Loads of things you can talk about without mentioning their appearance.

Fine to find someone attractive. Most of us (who are not asexual) do, from time to time.

However, the only circs in which it is okay to mention it to them is if you are in a social situation - bar, nightclub - where it might be okay to flirt. Even then do not do it as an opening gambit. Try the weather, the DJ's choice of music, the dreadful wine selection as openers. Ask her name first (you'll be relieved to know that it is no longer necessary to wait for a third party known to both of you to introduce you in this day and age). Only if the woman responds with interest to your overtures may you compliment her appearance. And do it once and once only - if you get a brush off you move on.

The only circs in which it is okay to mention that you find a woman attractive to a third party is if that third party is a really good mate, you won't be overheard and you are 100% certain the mate won't blab about it. And even then, if you do so in terms of "phwoarr I'd give her one" you are what used to be known, in a more genteel age, as a bit of a cad.

Sadly, however, based on your letter, in your case, I'd say you show signs of such severe social impairment in reading social situations that you'd be much safer leaving it to the woman to make the first move. If none of them do, then consider trainspotting as an alternative hobby.

Kindest regards,
Miss Manners

You look fantastic in that outfit

Would you say this to a man? No? Then what makes you think it's ok to say it to a woman?

That is the best thing I've read in weeks.

Perhaps I am wrong, but it feels that the actions of those men (and those like them) create a tension between perfectly moderate men and women, where both feel guarded. That's a terrible shame indeed.
What, as opposed to the situation where just the women feel guarded and the men feel totally relaxed and fine? No skin off my nose if men suddenly feel they have to watch themselves and how they are perceived round women. In fact it would be good for them to get a taste of that.

Yes I've said it to a man, usually at a wedding or such when their appearance is notably different.

It would be like 'looking very dapper there!' - it would be a lighthearted comment and a true one at the same time. It begs the question, why
can't that be said to a woman too? I don't turn into a monster because I say it to a woman. Her gender is irrelevant, so why should the treatment of the sentiment differ by gender?

I remember when this thread wasn't so dull.

Do these men who you compliment on their appearance ever get the wrong end of the stick? If not, why not?

Please stop feeding the sealion. 🙏

Yes, there's been something of a "but I know I'm a nice man so why does Doreen in accounts look so cross when I tell her how attractive she looks in that dress?" derail going on.

It does take a special kind of stupid to move seamlessly from "rich git tells woman on 15 quid an hour for a 10 hour shift to take her knickers off and dance on the table" to "it leaves nice men worried they can't compliment Doreen in accounts" when (a) the second scenario is only tangentially relevant to the first and (b) the second one is actually pretty creepy behaviour too.

What, as opposed to the situation where just the women feel guarded and the men feel totally relaxed and fine?

Nope, where either is affected. I don't think a reasonable man would feel comfortable if a woman felt guarded. I certainly wouldn't, but can't speak for all. I'd feel the same if another man felt guarded too, as it would suggest there's something fundamentally wrong in the arrangement / event.

Sorry! I know it is bad but at the same time for the lurkers it is good to see refutations of the standard office creeps mansplaining justifications and arguments.

Sorry too! Will go and stick pins in a wax model of trump or something instead. Quite a lot of this week's news has really pissed me off for some reason

God this guy must be really fucking thick if he gets paranoid and about not being able to tell the difference between can't tell the difference between being at served by an attractive bar maid down the pub and all male event with paid hostesses who are purposely told to drink and the compere is shouting about 'spicing up your wife' with plastic surgery, with a programme that has to make a point of saying 'do not grope the staff'.

If he really can't work out the problem all by himself, then he's not going to cope with whole sentences explaining it.

Maybe you could put a disclaimer on your replies? Something like:

I feel I should reply to the sea lioning tedious man but sorry