A Woman's Place - Edinburgh GRA meeting 14 Feb

[AssignedPuuurfectAtBirth]

www.eventbrite.co.uk/e/a-womans-place-loves-womens-rights-tickets-42402450872

Who is going? I'm def up for it

[Robbabank]

Just saw this. twitter.com/mayday4women/status/965450204865548288

[Robbabank]

And this is the write up in The National from Vonny Leclerc who spoke briefly towards the end of the meeting.
www.thenational.scot/news/16031254.Only_good_faith_debate_can_break_the_impasse_on_gender_identity/

Has anyone see whether the WPuK have posted links to the drill hall talk yet? Or will they?
Interested to hear your thoughts.

[Robbabank]

(Vonny has repeatedly asked sisters uncut Edi for a meeting/discussion but been ignored so far. I looked at their page before the talk, but can’t bear to since last week because of the toxic shite that I expect to find now multiplied there!)

[DonkeySkin]

Thanks for the Vonny article, Robba.

I sympathise with her well-intentioned desire to find 'common ground' between TRAs and feminists, but unfortunately she is spectacularly off-base about the goals and motivations of the trans movement.

She wrongly assumes that feminists and TRAs both desire an end to patriarchy - they just have different approaches and thus have somehow found themselves in the midst of a bitter war, when in fact they could be working together. Nothing could be further from the truth. The trans movement is the patriarchy on steroids (literally): it is an insidious, vicious attack on women's rights that is driven by a male psychosexual complex (autogynephilia), and women need to resist it and expose it for what it is, not compromise with it.

Not that compromise is possible. Transgenderism is a totalitarian movement whose overriding goal is to extinguish sex as a meaningful category. If women are unable to distinguish ourselves from men or draw any boundaries against them, that's the end of feminism and all of women's sex-based rights and protections.

Vonny doesn't seem to understand that the conflict between 'gender identity' and 'sex' is a zero sum game, since the former concept can only exist by obliterating the latter. Either we make laws and policy and theory on the basis of sex as a material reality, or we do so on the basis of the meaningless and subjective 'gender identity'. As long as the trans movement seeks to replace 'sex' with 'gender identity', it will be in direct conflict with women's rights, and I resent the exhortation in Vonny's article that women need to 'balance' our rights against the demands of an extremist, male supremacist movement.

[PlectrumElectrum]

I think the part of Vonny's article where she's skimmed over the trans stance is what troubles me whenever there's an effort to 'find common ground'. The section covering her discussion with James which states

"He works closely with women’s organisations here, and believes GRA reform won’t impact women’s rights – “if I thought it would, I wouldn’t be asking for it”.

Just doesn't cut it I'm afraid. A 2 hr conversation with James & no detail on how he explains his understanding of the GRA reform, his understanding of the current legal protections women have & explaining his understanding how the GRA reform doesn't affect women's rights - no where to be seen.

This is what's missing from the stifled debate & the article doesn't do much to move this forward. The whole problem is that debate is stifled, woolly vague platitudes are given from the TRA perspective with no details & we go round in circles getting no where precisely because of the extreme #nodebate nonsense.

I hoped for something more, I dunno, significant from the piece & I'm just left feeling disappointed.

[Newyearsameme80]

A wimptastic article. Sorry but that's not the work of a radical feminist.

[xxmarksthespot]

"Transgenderism is a totalitarian movement whose overriding goal is to extinguish sex as a meaningful category. If women are unable to distinguish ourselves from men or draw any boundaries against them, that's the end of feminism and all of women's sex-based rights and protections. "

very well said.

[Robbabank]

Thanks for your replies Donkey and Plectrum. I agree that it seemed a platitudinous and weak article. I see that she is trying to calm the vitriol and polarity of the debate, but there was little scrutiny and nothing demanding or exacting in her piece.
Donkey - your description of transgenderism as a totalitarian movement with the objectives you describe - this is where I struggle or vacillate or whatever:
I think there are lots of transsexuals who don’t see a need for GRA reform (wrt to self ID, although there may be other trans-specific issues that bear scrutiny), and don’t want to obliterate material sex. I can’t get on board with the idea that every trans person is suffering with autogynephilia. Is that what you believe? That’s it’s all a psychosexual affectation? What about females to male? Are they really all just lesbians in fact?
Genuinely interested in further explanation as I’m at the relatively early stages of understanding the whole issue in more depth.

[ItsAllGoingToBeFine]

TBF to Vonny I think she is gender critical and against TRAs - I think she is just being smart about it and getting people to think about and be aware of the issues. Be too gender critical or "anti-trans" and the message of the article gets drowned out by the cries of transphobia. By focusing on the importance of retaining women's rights to single sex spaces she makes it harder to argue against

I think some of the stuff she didn't say is quite telling -ie she didn't report much of the two hour interview which would suggest to me that she didn't think any of the points he made were particularly worth publishing.

[OOAOML]

I follow Vonny on Twitter and she is very much trying to keep to a 'let's calm this down' line, but she's covering the subject a lot and bringing it to wider attention, which should be a good thing. Plus people now know that Sisters Uncut refused to speak to her, which shows them up.

[Robbabank]

Donkey- just saw your comment on the other thread on letter to MPs on GRA - brilliant!
Love that nub of the question:
We are asking why politicians are proposing a law that means any man can say he's a woman.

[Newyearsameme80]

Itsallgoingtobefine did you not think that overall the article came across as being more impressed with the views of the man she interviewed than the women's meeting? That's how it seemed to me.

[Ereshkigal]

He works closely with women’s organisations here, and believes GRA reform won’t impact women’s rights – “if I thought it would, I wouldn’t be asking for it”.

Well that's all right then, a man has spoken.

[SuperLoudPoppingAction]

My first reaction to this kind of article is always disappointment. It's always to go 'aaw but why does it represent the opposing view so sympathetically'. I felt that way about the New Yorker piece in 2014.

But when I go back to that piece, and this one, I'm grateful that there's a balanced mainstream news article (rather than an opinion piece of which plenty exist) which I can eg refer my employer to if there's an issue with my attendance.
Vonny's contribution on the night was incredibly sensitive and powerful and I'm in no doubt about where she stands.

[DonkeySkin]

Newyears and Erishkigal, I'm assuming James is a transman and therefore female...

I can’t get on board with the idea that every trans person is suffering with autogynephilia. Is that what you believe? That’s it’s all a psychosexual affectation? What about females to male? Are they really all just lesbians in fact?

Robba, I am not saying that every trans-identified person is on board with the TRA agenda - clearly they are not, as some speak out against it and probably some others stay silent for fear of becoming targets. And when I say that the trans movement is driven by autogynephiles, I mean that its goals and the abuse, narcissism and misogyny that characterises it are set by autogynephilic men, who now make up the majority of those identifying as 'transwomen' and who certainly have the most power and influence in the movement.

I doubt that non-AGP transsexuals would have come up with the idea of self-ID in the first place - it is clearly a concept which benefits fetishistic transvestite men, both because to allows them to circumvent any checks put in place by medical authorities, and because it eliminates all boundaries that women might draw on the basis of sex. Transgressing women's boundaries - forcing us to participate in their fetish - is a big component of autogynephilia.

As for trans-identified females, they transition for very different reasons to men, and this is reflected in their demographic make-up. Note that the middle-aged heterosexual men who come out as trans after marrying and fathering children have no counterparts among women: 'transmen' are overwhelmingly young women (teens to twenties), many of them lesbians who are coming of age in a time when there is extreme cultural hostility towards non-feminine women and butch lesbians in particular.

One of the reasons people find it so hard to get a grasp on the trans movement is that there are all sorts of people with very different pathologies now identifying as 'trans'. You have people with sex dysmorphia (which in itself can have many different causes), young people on the ASD spectrum, young women who are disassociating from their female bodies due to trauma, misogyny or lesbophobia, children whose 'trans' identity appears to be largely imposed by their parents due to homophobia or some form of Munchausen by Proxy, along with heterosexual men who are enacting a fetish (autogynephiles). All of these groups now come under the banner 'trans', which makes it impossible for casual observers to properly understand the phenomenon.

That's why I always say 'trans-identified' rather than 'trans'. Trans activists would have us believe that being trans is an innate characteristic, like being left-handed. This is false. Trans is not an innate quality of humans; it isn't even an objective medical diagnosis. It's an identity that people assume, for various reasons, as well as an ideology, a way of understanding gender (sex roles) that is ultimately extremely regressive and harmful.

[Ereshkigal]

Oh right. It wouldn't have surprised me if James was an actual trans ally man though given how sanctimonious many men are about this issue.

[CharlieParley]

Robbabank and Donkeyskin

I just read my way through this FAQ on the science of changing sex

sillyolme.wordpress.com/faq-on-the-science/

It's written by an MtF transkid who transitioned in the 1970s. The author analyses the existing research on the subject in an accessible way and I found it very informative.

So, according to heaps of research based on empirical evidence there are only two kinds of transsexuality:

transkids (early onset transitioners) who are always homosexual

and

Autogynephiliacs (late onset transitioners) who are always non-homosexual (mostly heterosexual but may be bisexual)

These are two completely different types and apparently no overlap at all. They are, she says "mutually exclusive and distinct". The science seems to allow for no other conclusion and she is entirely uncompromising about it.

The currently dominating trans rights activists deny this taxonomy, declaring that autogynephilia doesn't exist, has been disproven, is transphobic and so on. I found her explanation of this particularly enlightening:

Rather than the science being transphobic, the denial of the taxonomy is itself part of an internalized transphobia, call it “autogynephobia” that leads many transgender people, especially AGP transwomen and cross-dressers, to deny their own autogynephilic sexuality and experiences. Autogynephobic denial also is the root cause of “identity politics” that seeks to disparage transwomen who acknowledge autogynephilia, and to disparage cross-dressers, from whom they wish to distance themselves.

She states also that the recent claim that AGPs would have transitioned as kids had that option be available is demonstrably false. To her this is also part of the identity politics and she does point out that "special venom is exhibited toward MTF transkids who speak or write about the science, or even just the obvious differences between themselves and AGP transwomen."

[Newyearsameme80]

Donkeys in you are quite right James is a trans man.
I actually suspect that is why he seems far more reasonable on the topic than most TRAs who tend to be of the opposite persuasion...

[Sillyolme]

"young women who are disassociating from their female bodies due to trauma, misogyny or lesbophobia, children whose 'trans' identity appears to be largely imposed by their parents due to homophobia or some form of Munchausen by Proxy,"

Wow... No... this is spinning from a very unsympathetic, unempathetic, and tribalist viewpoint that has gained traction lately... to which I've already responded in several recent essays:

sillyolme.wordpress.com/2018/01/12/the-silencing-of-the-transkids-part-2/

sillyolme.wordpress.com/2018/01/12/the-silencing-of-the-transkids-part-3/

Essentially, your words are making very ugly accusations that aren't backed up by the evidence. Most of the "young women" who are falsely claiming a transgender identity are in fact heterosexual, NOT lesbians who are transitioning to due to homophobia. That false meme is a tribalistic interpretation and dismissal of young transmen's agency and autonomy, their right to self-determination. It can't be that they have made a rational decision based on their own circumstances and hopes for the future... no they must be victims of nefarious homophobic ideology as I discuss in my first referenced essay above. No... as I said... we do have a problem with non-gender dysphoric girls taking on a mistaken transgender social identity... but they are STRAIGHT GIRLS:

sillyolme.wordpress.com/2017/04/16/getting-lost-in-the-crowd/

Oh... and this false claim that transkids must be victims of parental homophobia... NOT ! From personal experience and from discussions with many other transkids over my lifetime, I can report truthfully that homophobic parents are even more transphobic. Even my own father tried to convince me to live as a closeted gay man instead of living the life of a "passing" transwoman... just like his own closeted gay brother (the one that we never talked about and was never allowed to family events in spite of remaining closeted... no thanks Dad... I'll live as I feel I must... and of course did).

I get loads of emails from parents of gender atypical and dysphoric kids and teens. NEVER have I met or corresponded with one who wanted their child to be trans... and many ask their teenager to be simply gay or lesbian instead (mostly because of the personal embarrassment they feel they will be exposed to when it becomes known that their child is "one of THOSE people"... don't believe it... just look at the ugly transphobic attitudes found in these very comments).

Again, this false claim is based on a tribalistic desire of gay people to not see those that appear similar to themselves find a path in life so dissimilar and alien to their own...

[CharlieParley]

@sillyolme

IMHO, the accounts from the parents of those adolescent girls suddenly transitioning after showing no earlier indication of gender dysphoria (what some call Rapid Onset Gender Dysphoria) show clearly that they are not homophobic.

On the contrary, from the parents I've spoken to recently or who published their stories, it's clear that many of the kids find this stuff themselves, online. Or their friends tell them. Then they transition at school (often with a friend, but without even telling their parents) and the schools here now just affirm and see no need to check with the parents if the kids maybe have mental health issues that could be causing them to reject their bodies.

And it's actually the parents telling the kids, no I don't think you're really a boy, you're just having a hard time figuring things out because you're probably lesbian. (A large number of those girls are on the autistic spectrum, mostly Asperger's.)

Many desist, even after socially transitioning (though that seems to be very difficult) and every single parent said that they were relieved to find their daughter was "just gay". And they didn't "cure" them, the kids simply needed longer to figure things out.

But I do think the social contagion is a concern - it drowns out the real transkids and the automatic affirmation of kids who aren't truly dysphoric cannot be good for them either. We know from empirical evidence that girls suffer far greater body shame than boys, they're more likely to self-harm or to develop eating disorders. Could this just be another manifestation of body shame for these girls? And how do we find out?