The "Transwomen are women" thing

[Battleax]

Bear with me for a moment.

( @Ekphrasis said something interesting on another thread about what closes ears to what we're saying and I've been thinking about closed ears more generally.)

Would it work better to sidestep the whole "Transwomen are women" mantra instead of taking it on?

Just talk about "natal women" having different needs to "transwomen". Every single time.

Because I think "no they're not" stops the brainwashed from listening.

DonkeySkin 👏

Can we have a thread listing all the differences between TIMs and women?

YY Donkey Skin.

We are women. They are not. Fact. TRAs fall into one of two camps - deluded or malevolent. Enough of being understanding, cooing over them and their delusions. They are not just intent on shoving women under a bus, they are also shoving genuine dysmorphic men who find some peace in "living" as women while acknowledging they are still biological men, under the bus too.

Am I worried about being called a bigot? No. Am I worried about being called a TERF? No.

They are entitled to their opinions but facts are sacred. They are men and all the preening, lipstick and eyelash fluttering in the world won't change that. Will it take them getting prostate cancer to acknowledge the difference between biology and this made up concept of gender? (Or will they say they have lady prostates..?)

I agree with your original post Battleax.
I whilst I don’t underestimate the significance of claiming the word women, I think it opens up a hall or smoke and mirrors that can be used to sabotage what could be useful debate and discussion. ...I think it is far more effective to say natal women have some needs that differ to transwomen and vice versa.

Yes.

The mainstream media representation is Love Lies and Records, or that Denise Welsh one about the son who starts dating a transwoman. (And didn't realise she used to be a man-how?!) Saying anything negative about trans people seems mean and heartless.
It's a war of perception.

Yes

I agree with you. It’s completely galling, but some kind of subtlety is needed if we want people who are convinced they’re fighting a good fight to listen. I just posted some similar thoughts in the ‘terf’ thread.

YES.

All three of you have put it much more clearly than I managed.

Ladyboys don’t say that they are women do they?

Am I worried about being called a bigot? No. Am I worried about being called a TERF? No.

No neither and I, but I am worried about women not being listened to because we're dismissed because of the presentation.

Neither am I^

I think that's true, yes. But I looked at a Twatter thread linked to on here (I NEVER look at politics on Twitter, just use it for work) and most of the people saying "transwomen are women" were men.

Of course they were saying that. But they don't believe it:

twitter.com/greenrd/status/951948874331099137

The trans issue needs to get into the awareness of MorrisZapp's
People with literally no opinion: 40%
People who think the word for a TIM is 'tranny' and laugh at the concept: 52%

Not sure how that might happen but until it does the TRAs will have a disproportionate amount of influence by gaslighting and using emotional blackmail.

I do wonder how many British heterosexual men, especially far left liberal types, would have or consider having an intimate relationship with a TIM. They consider them to be actual, literal women, after all.

I actually think quite a few but only as a tourist attraction. I have friends who are drag queens and they get so many straight men trying (and often succeeding to have sex with them) they call them ‘tranny chasers’ (their words not mine).
Straight men who are curious but only for a try.
I remember a frank conversation where my friend joked he became a drag queen because he was getting older and couldn’t get cock anymore as he was no longer a twink and couldn’t be arsed to go to the gym, so he put a dress and a wig on and suddenly his supply doubled.

Well..the closeted ones might!
But yes, men know that TIMS are not women. Of course they do. But it's easy virtue signalling to say they believe it, cos it doesn't affect them at all.

Humbled I inspired a thread!

I'm supposed to be working so will work through the discussion later.

*Would it work better to sidestep the whole "Transwomen are women" mantra instead of taking it on?

Just talk about "natal women" having different needs to "transwomen". Every single time*

I think I'd prefer not to have to say natal women but do in some instances. And I think it helps in those instances.

To me the statement 'transwomen are women is a massive barrier to sensible discussion.' I agree that replying 'no they're not' is another wall from their POV.

I aim to side step the wall without ignoring it. 'Please define a woman for me' helps. I think focusing on sex based experiences in discussion helps. This may actually include reference to the actual biological sex of a trans person - I think saying "I'm not a trans woman, our experiences and issues are different" is pertinent, relating it directly to the way biology affects women's issues and trans issues differently.

Can't remember who it was who said

Only men can be transwomen.
Only women can be transmen.
Don't erase trans reality

But that last line is powerful whilst maintaining that there's a fundamental difference in our historical and present life experiences.

I want to respect trans people's difficulties; not at the expense of women's. Adding some respect demonstrates a willingness to listen. And I'm willing to listen; not heard anything yet other than a description of teen girls attacking a trans woman in a ladies toilet.

It's crazy but great that so many trans women actually agree with us.

I'm collecting useful phrases.

(I'm not entirely sure all this is making sense?)

I'm aware to a point, I'm playing into a socialisation game of being the polite woman, but my aim is to play to the game to my advantage and use intelligence, empathy and hard hitting facts.

I will add that I'm learning on Twitter that some people on the left are unaware that TRA are being as forceful and misogynistic as they are. And are completely unaware of the fact that our biology still oppresses is. And they don't join the dots.

Some are men, some are women who've not yet experienced it yet.

I grew up thinking feminism had done its job and we were fine now. Till I got a bit older and had a baby and a few illnesses and found myself surrounded by patriarchy and paternalism and realised I'd never spotted the misogyny around me before. And mn helped of course.

Sorry to also add - I think pointing out that trans issues are mainly caused by gender stereotypes ingrained in society is helpful as it pushes the argument back to the patriarchy and how men and women are conditioned from birth.

I think there's more intelligent bits to add to that but I'm still learning how to vocalise it.

OP "Just talk about "natal women" having different needs to "transwomen". Every single time."

I don't think this will help, it's just a rephrase of what we are already saying.

it's impossible to argue with cray cray so I think sticking with facts is just easier tbh.

twitter.com/MadamBiro/status/954871790442090496

Bayeux effect. Feeles Alle womannie

I grew up thinking feminism had done its job and we were fine now

I gradually learned, not when I was edged out of my job for having a baby, but when 15 year old girls in my dds' year were saying that they had sex with their boyfriend because he wanted to but they didn't really want it, and another was saying it was better to stay with the boyfriend that hit her and wanted blowjobs, because it was better to have a boyfriend than not to. That was when I began to realise that something was amiss - where does this mindset come from =they were supposed to have grown up into an era when women had equal opportunities, shared the housework, and no longer had to keep their sexual needs hidden.

I agree with donkeyskin on the AWS petition, but the reason it was framed this way is that men with a GRC already are women, according to the law. So there is no way to keep them off AWS - the best the organisers can hope for is to draw the line at self-ID.

Men are never a subset of women, and there is no such thing as 'transwomen'. They are just male colonists, attempting to dominate and control women
hear hear

And men who present in a feminine manner are never treated as women, ever.

Yes, yes and thrice yes! Transphobia is a sub-category of homophobia. It is not a sub-category of misogyny or sexism.

Is that ‘feminine’ men or men acting/looking like a woman?

*DonkeySkin
MmmmmmBop
*
Hear hear. Can't add much more really.

twitter.com/stellacreasy/status/955118887447814145

The Bayeux Tapestry thread got more interesting after I stopped looking. Busy twitter day today.

When Stella C says; "its also pure fiction and why those who claim to be standing up for women by engaging in this way need to have a long hard look at themselves. No one saying trans issues easy, but this? be better advocates for your concerns."

What is it she's criticising? I can't follow/see what came before.

twitter.com/MadamBiro/status/954870062443323395