The "Transwomen are women" thing

[Battleax]

Bear with me for a moment.

( @Ekphrasis said something interesting on another thread about what closes ears to what we're saying and I've been thinking about closed ears more generally.)

Would it work better to sidestep the whole "Transwomen are women" mantra instead of taking it on?

Just talk about "natal women" having different needs to "transwomen". Every single time.

Because I think "no they're not" stops the brainwashed from listening.

All men understand that transwomen are men. All of them know this.
I think that's true, yes. But I looked at a Twatter thread linked to on here (I NEVER look at politics on Twitter, just use it for work) and most of the people saying "transwomen are women" were men.
It feels like a lot of gleeful misogyny to me. Lefty men can appear all right on and down with the kids while at the same time fucking over women. Win win for them.
Anyway, I totally get your point OP, and I think the best thing is to just ignore the mantra and point out the ways in which women are disadvantaged by their SEX.
One young woman on Twitter actually said " what lived experiences do cis women reallyhave that folder from those of transwomen?" Well, listing them all is a start I guess.

Then they get to uni and they daren't say A WORD.

They can't can they. These people hold their future career prospects (same goes for all of us actually) in their hands, at a time when earning power is down, life expenses are up and security is non existent.

The only way anyone can believe this stuff is real is if they've never had to face hard reality themselves, born rich and advantaged with security blankets a-plenty. Then they dare to sit there and pass judgement on the rest of us.

I may be feeling more than usually grumpy today.

I went out with a boy when I was 17 who was an anarchist and a punk, amongst other things. He ghosted me and never spoke to me again after he'd had sex with me. I was a bit naive and should have avoided him like the plague.

20 years on, he's on Twitter. He has 2 kids but isn't with either of their mothers. He is full-on Bromentum and keeps banging on about how trans women are women, and gender critical feminists are TERFs.

I actually think he despises women. He pretends to respect them, but he prioritises his Momentum credentials above treating women like human beings.

Anyway, I totally get your point OP, and I think the best thing is to just ignore the mantra and point out the ways in which women are disadvantaged by their SEX.

Yes maybe it's that simple.

I refuse to define my sex/gender in relation to a teensy minority of men - who use stereotypical male methods of crow barring, their way in, bullying and closing down womens voices to get what they (think they) want.

The problem when speaking to well meaning supporters of "transwomen are women" is that most people have the mental image of the nice colleague or neighbour who is a man "living as" a woman" just going about their business. It's not as though anti trans lobby feminists are looking to rip the skirt off these people and shout "aha!" Or chase them out of the ladies with burning torches.
Women have ALWAYS shown courtesy to transsexuals. Men, not so much. (Understatement of the century ).
For a lot of people, the image of the tragic transwoman, born in the wrong body, at risk of suicide is a powerful one (and for a lot of transwomen it's accurate).
But since most unnaceptance and abuse comes from men, not women, why are we the ones who are expected to take responsibility for their place at the table, at the expense of our own?
Another comment I read ( from a man) scoffed at the very idea that any man would falsely identify as a woman to get a place on an all female short list. He said let's deal with that if and when it happens (you hysterical harpies).
Well, alright for him to take that risk, eh? What are men conceding? ?

The only way anyone can believe this stuff is real is if they've never had to face hard reality themselves, born rich and advantaged with security blankets a-plenty. Then they dare to sit there and pass judgement on the rest of us.

Funnily enough, one of these anecdotes was that a certain student committee, headed by an ex-elite public schoolboy were discussing how to keep "TERFs" out of an upcoming event. On the way out the same ex-public school chairman had a dig at DS about what he was eating, accusing him of "cultural appropriation" because he considered it a working class food. It hasn't dawned on him that DC might, possibly, have WC roots.

Got to stand in awe of the arrogance

The problem when speaking to well meaning supporters of "transwomen are women" is that most people have the mental image of the nice colleague or neighbour who is a man "living as" a woman" just going about their business.

Yes, quite.

I like the term MPTBW
Men pretending to be women
Or FI
Female impersonators

Wtf is working class food? My mum loved her caviar, truffles and lobster - should she have stuck to spam fritters and liver and onions? Gruel?

Or MLAW
Men living as women

DM - deluded males

How is eating food working class? What were they eating, free school meals?

SomeOldFogey

It might be better to arrange an appointment with your MP.

Anecdotally, I have heard that a meeting can change minds. It seems as though they sometimes don't answer the letter themselves, as it goes through an assistant first.

A young, right-on assistant...

Yes it's all very odd. I believe that roughly 8% of the UK population has any awareness that trans is even a thing. My highly intelligent, political sister didn't know about it until I told her last month.

My theory is that transactivists and their allies think that the population is divided like this:

Trans and allies: 80%
TERFs: 20%

When in actual population terms, it's more like

Trans and allies : 4%
TERFs: 4%
People with literally no opinion: 40%
People who think the word for a TIM is 'tranny' and laugh at the concept: 52%

If anyone can prove broadly otherwise, I'd love to see it. Bearing in mind the Sun and the Daily Mail outsell the 'liberal' press by ten to one.

See I have no issue with "trans women are women". I am happy for them to make the change, I am happy to use the preferred she, her etc.

I do object when a trans woman goes into a role designated for women. The reason is that a newly self identidied trans woman can have no idea of the issues women face in a daily basis ....issues they have faced all their lives.

If a trans woman has lived as a women for 20+ years and truly experienced the inequalities I am less concerned. That said....a trans woman can never know what it means to give birth, be a mother, experience all the inequalities of being a mother etc.

ACRONYM, courtesy of Babs...
(Actively considering reassignment or not yet made-your-mind-up)

The fact that there is such a mantra, to be repeated by rote and never questioned, just setves to highlight that this is a belief system. It is a religion relying on blind faith.

I do not blindly parrot the tenets of other religions, so why should I pay any heed to this one?

Trans Identifying Males.

They do not deserve the moniker 'woman'; the term 'transwoman' is inaccurate and misleading.

Wtf is working class food? My mum loved her caviar, truffles and lobster - should she have stuck to spam fritters and liver and onions? Gruel?

We should compile ourselves a list of questions and go and get one of these earnest, dictatorial, privileged young men to answer them for us.

So very many questions.

The problem is Morris, were not going to get a referendum on this.

It's all about who is making the biggest noise, who has the most acceptable catchphrases and who has whose ear.

Morris, I agree with your breakdown of numbers.
However, I still fear this is unwinnable because those who have no opinion or think it's ridiculous won't feel the need to stand up and speak out.
We are being led into an Orwellian situation by a bunch of men pushing women out, and a bunch of women too scared to speak, as the women who speak out will be slowly and surely fired. No-one will "side" with logic if enough people call bigot.
Hopefully I'm just being over anxious about that, but an outcome where transwomen are women and saying otherwise is hate speech seems depressingly inevitable.

I think Tim is the best at acronym

There are several threads on here/elsewhere that keep coming up when a previously "live and let live" poster suddenly has the penny drop about what it actually means in reality.

Then you get loads of people equally horrified that in their rush to be seen to be cool and down with the trans agenda, they have been taken for a ride and surely that is not what they meant when they said they support trans people.

Its when you start saying that yes, you, Dave, with your beard and 6'4" brick shithouse stature will be able to waltz into a rape centre or my changing room, that everyone starts going "oh no of course I don't mean that".

Maybe a referendum is the answer? What we should be demanding?

That it's past a load of guff;

"Transwomen are women"
"Let's put the whole issue to a public vote."

"Self certified identity is essential"
"So you say. Let's put it to a referendum."

"Calling a transwoman a man is a hate crime."
"Let's have a referendum on that."

And surely if MPs postbags and newspaper letter pages and twitter fill up with demands for a referendum, the politicians will fall on that gratefully as a way out?

Sorry, typos galore.