Break it down for me?

[TortiousTortoise]

Hi all, I am fairly new to the discussion on the impact that transwomen are having on women generally and I want to more fully understand the issues (been trying to talk to my husband about it and am struggling to articulate it).

I feel so awkward writing about this as I definitely don't want to come across as sounding horrible about transpeople, I just want to understand.

Also there are a lot of acronyms being thrown about. Can anyone help me out?

Lisa Muggeridge important comments about safeguarding & rule of law:

Bump!

This topic ought to be pinned. It's a mine of information, an archive and I constantly re-read and check it for updates. Thanks to the MNetters who are keeping it going

I'm not going to make it to the end of this tonight... but thanks to the contributors so far... I'm on page 11, maybe I can read a couple more before crashing!

I'd like to add my thanks to everyone. This thread is a testament to the power of women talking together.

As is familiar, some parents are very concerned about their children identifying as transgender and potentially being pushed down an irreversible pathway of never undergoing their natural puberty because they are on "puberty-blockers", taking cross-sex hormones, and having surgery... Not only do all these interventions have their own risks (including impact on fertility), but we don't know the long-term data. Puberty blocking drugs, in particular, have been linked to bad side effects. Despite these concerns, the media seems to be producing dramas such as Butterfly on ITV, which seems to be a thinly-fictionalised story of Mermaids founder Susie Green and her child.

The issue was covered in the Observer:

But one mother who signed the letter to the Tavistock told the Observer that there was a fear the pressures were leading to some teenagers being “fast-tracked” to the clinic’s adult services, which did not fully explore the psychosocial factors that may influence someone’s decision to transition to the same extent that the GIDS does for children.

“The adult service did not explore trauma or autism,” she said. “It seemed very obvious to us that [our child’s desire to transition] was a mental health problem.” She added that the justification for “physical intervention” was “that these people are very unhappy and that nothing else works in the short term – give them hormones and surgery and they feel better, but the evidence base is very weak.”

And she suggested that “some families were terrified they’ve got a gay child and would much rather transition them to the opposite sex”.

Discussed here:
www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3413784-The-Guardian-Too-young-to-decide-Questions-dividing-real-life-Butterfly-families

Original article:
www.theguardian.com/society/2018/nov/03/real-life-butterfly-families-transgender-child-tavistock-clinic

For more on puberty blockers:
www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3412652-Lupron-and-GnRH-agonists-getting-attention-finally

The unspoken homophobia propelling the transgender movement, by Debra Soh in Quillette

Why would this be the case? Along with the physical and emotional discomfort that is typical of undergoing puberty, it has become more socially acceptable to be a transgender man than a gay woman. The study’s findings also showed that transitioning increased students’ popularity among their peers and offered greater protection from harassment, because teachers were more concerned about anti-trans bullying than bullying that was anti-gay.

As children grow up, parents will undoubtedly notice if their son is effeminate. For those who are troubled at the thought of having a girly son, transitioning offers a promising solution—by allowing a child to transition, a feminine boy now presents as a feminine girl. A little boy who enjoys indulging in make-up and other female-typical activities will bring about much less attention and criticism if he were a girl.

This same logic extends to a child’s future sexual orientation. On some level, these parents likely know that there is a chance their feminine son will grow up to be sexually attracted to men. Instead of allowing this to happen, they may be more than happy to go along with facilitating their child’s requests to transition to the opposite sex, so that to the outside world, that child will appear heterosexual—an adolescent boy who is attracted to other boys will appear to be straight if he transitions to female. What’s most disturbing is that these parents will be lauded as open-minded and “on the right side of history,” when in actuality, they are homophobic. In some cases, a child may internalize their families’ anti-gay sentiments, which adds to their desire to transition.

Saying any of these things aloud will get a person branded as transphobic, and I understand why some transgender activists and their allies find this information so threatening; it could potentially be used as evidence that transgender people don’t really exist, or they should be forced to not feel the way that they do. One meta-analysis of 28 studies showed that transitioning can indeed be beneficial for some adults, but in the event that a child can grow to be comfortable in the body they were given, it shouldn’t be controversial to contend that this would be a better outcome than a lifetime of hormones and possible surgery and sterility.

Since I began writing about this issue several years ago, many of my friends have told me how relieved they were to not have grown up in today’s political climate. As children, they similarly voiced unhappiness about their bodies and felt that they identified with the opposite sex, but eventually grew up to feel comfortable living as gay men. They fear they would have decided to transition, because transitioning is now considered a viable, and almost commonplace, way to resolve this.

Shared by IdaBWells and discussed on this thread:
www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3414668-The-Unspoken-Homophobia-Propelling-the-Transgender-Movement

quillette.com/2018/10/23/the-unspoken-homophobia-propelling-the-transgender-movement-in-children/

To anyone reading, make sure you're taking care of yourself, too. It's a lot to take on board. & .

hereseyandwitchcraft
Very good point you made there about people taking care of them selves.
I’ve just had a stroke, very mild and I have no ongoing speech or mobility problems but my BP was 225/190 when it happened
I’ve posted loads of GC stuff on FB and several of my real friends Imean not fb friends told me that it’s time I stopped with all the trans stuff. I won’t stop now. I’m an old woman and I can say what I want now. I always did but when I was younger I cared about how people perceived me. Now I really don’t give a fuck

Prestons
I'm so sorry about your health. How are you feeling? Please look after yourself first and do what's best for you. Too often women are expected to minimize their own needs...

Thank you heresyandwitchraft
I was reading the thread about how to remove yourself from the expectation of being kind. I grew up with a complete cow of a mother so I’ve lived it from the other side.
I’ve been described as bossy, hard as nails, gobby, mouthy, opinionated, and my favourite, difficult. Mostly by men, FWR has brought it home to me that I’m not a bad person, I’m never going to shut up because a man has told me to, I’ll still carry on expressing my thoughts and opinions

FWR has brought it home to me that I’m not a bad person, I’m never going to shut up because a man has told me to, I’ll still carry on expressing my thoughts and opinions

Fantastic . Thank you! Your voice matters. As does your health!

FWIW, I'm trying to be more "difficult" myself. Hope to learn from you and the other women on here...

this thread has (genuinely) changed my life over the last few weeks. finally delurking because this quote from lunamoth on the 'great blog about being a trans-inclusive feminist' thread actually made me shout YES in the office:

"GC and radical feminists know that women are human beings who happen to be born with female bodies, not collections of stereotypes that a particular society has deemed “feminine.”

i work in an industry where the majority of people are a fair bit younger than me and the wokeness + virtue signalling re. trans had started to make me feel i was through the looking glass - permanently thinking "er, yes i strongly support everyone's right to be whatever they want to be, but what about women in this scenario?" but being too scared of the backlash to pipe up.

i'd never have shouted "i am a feminist" at any point in my 40-odd years, but am now tentatively vocal about it, have described myself as GC on several occasions and explained what that is and thus managed to get a handful of people to respond to GRA. massive thanks and kudos to everyone whose posts here have been so enlightening and have made me feel not-bonkers.

Massive thanks to you, too hipstitslipspower! So glad to have you here!

Bump

Janice Turner writes another amazing piece in the Times, comparing whether someone can be trans-age, trans-race, or self-identify their gender simply on their word.

If identity politics win, a man of 69 can be 49

Emile Ratelband is 69 but feels like a “young god” of 49. His doctors agree he has the constitution of a much younger guy. So Ratelband is fighting through the Dutch courts to change his legal birth date from 1949 to 1969 so he can get a mortgage, a better job and, crucially, pull more chicks on Tinder.

A man who identifies as a woman, he argues, can obtain a new birth certificate stating she was born female, so why can’t he wipe 20 years off his age? A court has argued it would mean deleting part of Ratelband’s life, but is this different to trans people who request no further mention of their birth name and childhood?

“I am who I say I am,” is the slogan of modern trans activism. We should accept a natal male is a woman without question, whether she has retained male genitalia or indeed physically transitioned at all. The only thing needed for access to women’s changing rooms, prisons, refuges, sports, scholarships or posts created to combat sex inequality should be her word.

www.thetimes.co.uk/article/if-identity-politics-win-a-man-of-69-can-be-49-bqh6rsjqw

Discussed here (with link to full article):
www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3419496-Janice-Turner-When-self-identification-trumps-biology-men-can-be-women-white-can-be-black-and-age-really-will-be-just-a-number

This thread on a "transwoman" named Jonathan Yaniv demanding working-class women wax male genitalia or be sued. This individual (from Canada, where self-ID is legal) has threatened 16 women with lawsuits because they said they couldn't perform the service.

The background on this individual, including some VERY disturbing comments about young girls and menstruation is very enlightening of why women are getting SO angry.

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3418533-Jonathan-Yaniv-is-the-transwoman-demanding-women-wax-or-be-sued

I started coming out by asking questions. Slowly. Then sharing articles from popular news sources about women's rights.
Then I started sharing my own thoughts and experiences.

Some people got pissy and unfriended me, but many more thanked me for the information.

My friends list is full of great people who have my back. I never get any stick on my own Facebook page anymore. I actually get tons of support and cheers.

Do it. Slowly. Have good links on standby and don't say anything you aren't willing to defend. Keep it respectful.

I attack ideas, not people.

That's very good advice, SwordtoFlamethrower. Thank you.

This is a very scary and sobering video from Lisa Muggeridge, but worth watching to explain the danger to women posed by the most narcissistic and violently-inclined "trans rights activists".

Out of curiosity.. are a higher proportion of transwomen ‘lesbians’ compared to biological women? I have seen on here it mentioned a few times that quite a few of the prominent transwomen also identify as being lesbians, I just wondered how the rates compare?

beefchowmein

Not sure what you mean there. Men identifying as women and saying they are lesbian, are not very common, compared to actual women.

I mean, I'm sure there are tons of men who would like to identify as lesbian, in order to get their 'version' of lesbians interested in them sexually.

But I think it's probably quite fleeting, and they're not prepared to identify as transwomen, in order to do it. Especially as you are really limiting your dating pool of women, by doing so.

In terms of how many men identify as lesbians, as opposed to identifying as women who are attracted to men, and therefore heterosexual, even though they are having, historically homosexual sex...oh I can't be arsed.

I meant the percentage of biological women who are lesbians vs the percentage of transwomen who identify as lesbian if that makes sense. So if 1% of biological women are lesbian (just to pick a random figure) is the figure similar with transwomen

beefchowmein

Oh, I see. I don't know the answer to that, I'm afraid.

Hi beefchowmein

Not sure about the proper answer to your question and can't vouch for the data, but there was an article in Forbes about sexual orientation in trans people compared to statistics for the whole public that might be of interest. It appears to say that significantly more transwomen "identify as Lesbian"/Bisexual than women in the general population.

From what they write:
Women with sexual orientation that includes females: 3.4%
Transwomen with sexual orientation that includes females: 47%

This is where things get odd. 3.4% of women are Lesbian or Bisexual, meanwhile 27% of trans women identify as Lesbian with another 20% identifying as Bisexual. 3.6% of men are Gay or Bisexual while 12% of trans men are gay and another 12% are Bisexual.

www.forbes.com/sites/quora/2017/05/08/many-assume-that-homosexuality-and-transgenderism-are-related-but-that-may-not-be-the-case/#4bf60b8050b8