More women looking at porn.

[MarquisDeCarabas]

Victory for female empowerment or treasonous complicity in the sex industry? What think you?

www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2018/jan/15/porn-women-web-searches-female-sexuality-50-shaphy-women-desire-exploitation-powerful-role-sexuality

What if we had an ungendered concept that kind nurturing good listeners made good leaders?

OP I am not sure why you started this convo. You seem to have some very odd ideas about feminism.

I'd agree - but that's a separate issue. Feminism is about equality. How people behave once they're equal has got as little to do with their gender as their race. True equality demands gender becomes an irrelevance to power, with people gaining power on the basis of their skills, knowledge and values - not what's between their legs.

I always thought feminism meant it's wrong for women to be dis-empowered and socialised to think of themselves as fundamentally different from men. I'd agree.

Feminism is about equality

I thought that was Egalitarianism?

You are making the mistake of taking toxic masculinity as a natural and desirable default.

There is a middle ground.

It's the "race to the bottom" thing where equality means women adopting the least desirable traits of masculine controlled society.

It's a bit 90s all that.

Many feminists have generally discarded the "equality" thing as MRAs found it ripe for exploitation. This is the root of whataboutery and the ever popular gotcha "equality means we can punch you in the face now".

Women's liberation / or similar is clearer and has the benefit of not offering misogynists so many gotcha situations.

Well if the goal of feminism is not equality.....then what is it?

Liberation.

HTH.

The liberation of women from patriarchal oppression. In theory at least this means that (among other things) we could develop our own ideas about what good leadership might look like, rather than having to take on masculine attributes to succeed in a toxically masculine society.

What does that mean? Liberation to do what?

But surely if you were liberated then you would be liberated from masculine and feminine attributes? Aren't these conceits of patriarchal ideology?

It sounds like you want to keep some bits of patriarchy, but do away with others.

OP attributes aren't going to go away just because we stop gendering them.

Liberation to do what?

To peacefully prosper... something like that..

OP attributes aren't going to go away just because we stop gendering them.

Of course - but you're not just accepting they won't immediately go away: you're embracing them.

I don't understand your point at all. There's no problem with people being kind, the problem arises when one class of people is told they have to be kind because this makes them easier to exploit. There's no problem with people being sexually passionate, the problem arises when myths about how sexually passionate one class of people are are used to justify gendered sexual violence.

Oh I see you now. No more posting from me

I'm just going to say "what tallulah" said.

if you haven't heard of the women's liberation movement or imagine what we might want liberation from, then google will help further.

I find "to do what?" very dismissive. What do you imagine women and girls might like to do if they were liberated from oppression? What would the world look like? Give it some thought.

Quentin - you're right.

I was going to post about my porn useage but you've all got to clever for me and I know some sociology, but what you on about?

I've used it to masterbate, not regularly as have a good active sex life, still, after 29 years , so when dh is working away I sometimes go for ffm and find it very erotic.

Now please UpABitLate can you explain your postS, please?

Sorry for random capital, wasn't intentional

I don't understand your point at all. There's no problem with people being kind, the problem arises when one class of people is told they have to be kind because this makes them easier to exploit.

So the idea is that the women remain what they have been socialised to be, and men are socialised into joining them?

So, I think you're saying women don't have to be de-programmed of their patriarchal identity as kind, caring, nurturing people. The fact they are like this is a good thing. That bit of patriarchy can stay. What is bad is the socialisation of the male as violent, predatory etc. He does need to be de-programmed. The women can stay as they are, and the men can become like the women.