More women looking at porn.

[MarquisDeCarabas]

Victory for female empowerment or treasonous complicity in the sex industry? What think you?

www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2018/jan/15/porn-women-web-searches-female-sexuality-50-shaphy-women-desire-exploitation-powerful-role-sexuality

women seem better able to understand that just because we want something, doesn't mean we have the right to get it, if other people are involved.

Hear, hear...
In a nutshell

"Whether it's nature or nurture I don't know. Certainly women seem better able to understand that just because we want something, doesn't mean we have the right to get it, if other people are involved."

Sure, but is that because women are inherently, innately different; or is it as a result of the way they've been taught to be servile by a power structure?

If women did have equal or greater power and entitlement to men, I see no reason to believe they'd behave like angels.

The way I see it Marquis is that when a baby goes missing there are two different common narratives.

If the baby was stolen by a woman, this is because she is so desperately driven by her biology to steal a baby and love and care for it as her own. Usually she ends up giving the baby back when she comes to her senses.

If the baby was stolen by a man, it is because he is driven by his biology to want to fuck it, kill it then throw it away like a piece of rubbish once he is done with it.

Everybody hopes it is a woman who stole the baby.

Both the woman and man are biologically driven, but perhaps it is socialisation that makes the woman return the baby and the man kill them and throw them away...

I don't think women are angels, but I think there is a basic thing going on - men have a strong urge to penetrate others and women grow up knowing they are 'penetrable' which colours our perspectives. I think this would influence any porn women would make.

OP refer to my previous post

"I think it's impossible to know"

We are in the world we are in

There is always an interest in exploring the question, in a different world, would women be just as bad?

And while it's an interesting question, it is irrelevant to the conversations about how things are now, who is being harmed etc.

Pornhub, for example, have no interest in a non capitalist non misigynist utopia.

"I don't think women are angels, but I think there is a basic thing going on - men have a strong urge to penetrate others and women grow up knowing they are 'penetrable' which colours our perspectives. I think this would influence any porn women would make."

As I mentioned before, my brief foray into gay porn showed that this makes a difference in what they consume as well.

Het sexuality, as presented in the language around it, societal attitudes including religious, all sorts of stuff, involves a male aggressor and a passive or dominated female. This is rape culture, it is all around us. Whether it's nature or nurture for so many men to feel this destructive sexual violence towards women (and also less often towards children and men) I don't know.

98% of sex offenders in prison in the UK are men. There is certainly something going on there.

Ok I've name changed cos this won't be popular.

I like looking at images of people having sex. I find it sexually gratifying and I use porn when I masturbate. I read sexually explicit material and view images.

I did not do it for a long time because I believed it was not womanly or right. I didn't do for a further period of time because I believed it was exploitative. I was repressing my natural response because of society.

I have researched and found porn available that is made by people who want to do it. Lots and lots of porn is exploitative. Some porn is made by participants who want to and enjoy it, I watch that.

I am fed up of being told how to enjoy myself sexually. My teens i tried to behave like a good girl. In my twenties feminists told me how to enjoy sex. Now I have the sex I like to have with myself or with others.

If you don't like watching other people have sex good for you. I do and so do other people, if we can do it in a way everyone enjoys, me watching, them performing then that's fine by me. Ethical porn has people of all shapes and sizes and levels of hairiness. It has made me feel better about my body because I regularly view lots of different body shapes enjoying sex.

I don't think women are angels, but I think there is a basic thing going on - men have a strong urge to penetrate others and women grow up knowing they are 'penetrable' which colours our perspectives. I think this would influence any porn women would make.

This does go against the most basic tenets of feminism though, does it not? If such behaviour is biologically driven, then there's no point in feminism taking issue with nature.

Being a feminist means recognising the agency of women to be evil. It means in a sense allowing them the opportunity to be evil as well as good - to give them the full moral and existential responsibility that comes with power.

Anything else would not be true equality, but another disguised form of patriarchy that continues to identify the woman as passive, caring, nurturer.

In short, the power to simply do good isn't true power. As Spiderman (or is it Superman?) says 'With great power comes great responsibility'.

Being a feminist means creating a civilization that is fit for purpose. I dont know where you got the idea that its about freedom to act as shitty as the next man.

Everyone is penetrable.

A lot of cultural effort goes into training us to think of men as the penetrators and women as the penetrees.

"Being a feminist means recognising the agency of women to be evil."

This is an interesting perspective on feminism!

I thought it was about freeing women and girls from oppression but hey ho.

" It means in a sense allowing them the opportunity to be evil as well as good - to give them the full moral and existential responsibility that comes with power."

You see things in a binary. People are people. Women as a class are oppressed by men as a class. Individual men and women may be "good" or "evil" or more likely a mixture, and actually the terminology here is weird. Still as a class, men commit the vast majority of violence, especially sexual violence, they orchestrate the wars etc etc. The aim of feminism is not to give women power over others that they can then choose to cause pain, commit rape etc etc. The aim is to stop men being so fucking violent all the time, an aim that a lot of men would benefit from as well.

The positing of oh in a matriarchy maybe women would go around raping children to death.... What's the point? It's unknown whether in a reversal women would commit crime at the same levels, or the same type of crimes.

In a conversation about pornography, globally it's an industry that does an awful lot of harm.

And for justneedaquicknamechange, if you want to watch videos of people you know well fucking that is AOK. I'm sure you are aware that a lot of what is marketed as "ethical" amateur etc is in fact nothing of the sort. The only way to be sure is if you know them.

Of COURSE you can tell who is looking.
It scares me how naive some people are.

IP addresses on non shared devices will be very accurate - your name, age, location etc.

From this you can mosaic profile the demographic, house price, car driven, credit history etc etc.

This data can be sold to companies for marketing etc...

upabit namechange & SGB

I agree - you only know if it is ethical if you know the people in it - and even then I have been shocked to find out that relationships I thought were all tickety-boo were actually abusive behind the scenes, so you still have to be cautious.

I can image a scene of 'swingers' perhaps filming eachother and sharing it... but then again, it is usually the man in the couple that gets the woman into swinging, etc. It would be really hard to know.

Marquis
Acknowledging that males have a strong urge to penetrate bodies with their penises, and females are unable to penetrate bodies with their own sex organs, does not undo feminism.

Males can be socialised into not penetrating people and animals who do not want to be penetrated. In fact neglect and a lack of proper socialisation can lead to humans behaving in disturbing animalistic ways - male humans in particular.

In fact, downplaying the importance of socialisation in shaping human behaviour is often driven by misogyny and antifeminism because women do the majority of caring and early socialising of children, and antifeminists and misogynists have an interest in saying that women's contribution to society is worthless.

The positing of oh in a matriarchy maybe women would go around raping children to death.... What's the point? It's unknown whether in a reversal women would commit crime at the same levels, or the same type of crimes.

You're all misunderstanding me. I'm not saying it's in any way OK for women to go around behaving as awfully as men (I don't think it's alright for anyone to mistreat others) or, that it should, in itself, be the goal of feminism to enable women to behave badly.

What I am saying is that women should have the same access to power as men, and that will mean them taking on the same temptation to abuse that power.

Someone said 'men orchestrate all the wars' (we could mention Thatcher and Clinton, but yes it mostly is men); and the reason for that is perfectly simple: men have the power to do so, whereas women do not.

Part of a child being empowered into a fully agentified adult is their being given moral responsibility. If they are not given the choice the power to do wrong, then thy are not fully agentified. If women have equal power to men, then they will have the equal capacity to abuse that power - as well as do all the wonderful things with it that they are just as capable of doing as men.

I'm not trying to undo feminism.

And you don't need a penis to sexually abuse. Women molest children and animals in other ways.

I suggest that there are 2 factors which reduce the likelihood that women will be abusive 1) less access to power as you say op, and 2) their socialisation. What if female, rather than male, socialisation was seen as the better training for leadership and power? Minus all the shit about looking pretty I mean.

What if female, rather than male, socialisation was seen as the better training for leadership and power? Minus all the shit about looking pretty I mean.

I don't see how that could work, because female socialisation is contrary to leadership and power.

If you want women political leaders, corporate execs and generals, then that means badass women as well as great ones. It means female Stalins and Hitlers as well as Gandhis and Mandelas.

Pornhub said It? It must be true.

There's no doubt in my mind that porn contributes to sexual assault/abuse etc. If a teenage boy has instant access to videos where it's perfectly fine and reasonable for a guy to drag a woman about by the throat for example then he's going to think it's ok. I'm certainly not excusing the boy here but if it's perfectly legal then it's as good as an endorsement by the Govt.

None of this is good for women obviously, but it's not good for boys or men either.

Rubbish. Women are perfectly capable of leadership and are often outstanding leaders because they tend to have better 'people skills', greater willingness to listen to a range of perspectives, reduced risk-taking blah blah. These are the result of female socialisation.

Sorry that was to the op!

To quote a poster from a while ago

"Fucking Ghandi"

He had some dodgy ideas about women and girls and acted on them.

Rubbish. Women are perfectly capable of leadership and are often outstanding leaders because they tend to have better 'people skills', greater willingness to listen to a range of perspectives, reduced risk-taking blah blah. These are the result of female socialisation.

Of course they can be wonderful leaders, but in order for them to be leaders to the same degree as men that female socialisation must end. For patriarchy to end, the patriarchal concept of women as kind, caring, nurturing listeners must also end.