Is it legal for a man to use the women's toilet in England? Scotland?

[SerciteEland]

If not, can someone please point me to where I can find text of the law regulating this? I've tried searching here to no avail: www.legislation.gov.uk/search

I was always under the impression that it WAS illegal for a man to enter the women's room but now I'm not so sure and it seems a rather hard thing to search for.

I assume it must be since apparently a reading of the 2010 Equality Act has been invoked to allow transgender women to use the women's room. www.bbc.com/news/uk-england-36395646

www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/2010/15/section/19

But I can't seem to find the original law prohibiting men from being in the ladies'.

Further, I've only really started to pay attention to the trans issue within the last few years (first as an ally from 2011-2014 and thereafter becoming progressively more and more gender critical after hitting peak trans in 2014/15) and I somehow entirely missed that it's now apparently legal for trans women to be in the women's bathrooms. Does anyone have links to good information on how this happened (focused on the UK)? And have there been any documented abuses of it so far?

urine

Grumble, grumble, grumble... stupid iPad, deleting words when I add a star....

Sounds like you might be the exact woman to help all these men who just want to pee, Girl...

Give me a urethra masculina and a large extracting implement and I’m willing to do a YTS

I used to run a very cool London rock bar, back before my uterus chained me to the kitchen sink.

If I were still a licensee in this climate, I would change the toilet door signs for a illustration of genitals, think bus stop cock graffiti and the vulva equivalent.

If you’ve got an outie and you need a pissed up piss, use a urinal.

We separate toilet facilities on the basis of sex, biological, genetic SEX - not gendered feelings or types of outfits.

I'm sure the last thing that women want to do is use the gents. But in an emergency, what do you suggest? That they wet themselves? Bleed all over their clothes?

I agree that it's not unreasonable in an emergency. But if women can use the men's when there's inadequate provision for them, then trans people might ask why should they not use the women's until adequate provision is sorted for them where they'll be free of the danger posed by male violence.

People often talk about 'teaching men to be more accepting' but that's not a quick fix and certainly of no use to the transwomen who needs to pee when the men's football team has just entered the changing room.

I agree that it's not unreasonable in an emergency. But if women can use the men's when there's inadequate provision for them, then trans people might ask why should they not use the women's until adequate provision is sorted for them where they'll be free of the danger posed by male violence.

If transwomen are subjected to male violence in the gents (and there's nothing to suggest they are), how can the answer be to introduce men to the female space?

No thanks.

how can the answer be to introduce men to the female space?

Because they want it, they really really want it.

And if they don't get it, you are being transphobic.

I don't think anyone should be in the toilet designated for the opposite sex, but if women are going to do it then they can't really moan about men doing it. That's my point.

Women don't often write about men who have to use the ladies in an emergency, because, for instance, they have a three-year-old daughter.

Stop conflating the issues.

Women are complaining about the fact that certain men are now been given to understand that they have the right to come into the female toilets. And disagreement is bigotry.

I agree on the ridiculous nature of the self ID argument, but there are also posters on this thread who think they have the right to use the mens. 🤷‍♀️

Fascinating really.

This is the 'you wanted equality, ha! So i can punch you in the face now' school of argument i think.

No, it's the 'practice what you preach' school of argument.

I don't think anyone should be in the toilet designated for the opposite sex, but if women are going to do it then they can't really moan about men doing it. That's my point

Men are not using the ladies because there is a lack of toilet provision for men. Men can piss up a wall if they so desire; indeed within a minute of parking up in a city centre on Friday night, I saw two of them pissing up a wall.

Women are not using the men's because they are scared of women in women's toilets. If they use them at all it's when there is NO provision available for women.

You don't seem able to understand the basics here.

Males and females use your bathroom at home

Clearly not a mumsnetter, or they'd no that you never let a delivery person/builder use your toilet. It's one of the rules (well except for the people saying 'why the hell not' who've clearly never had a group of 5 tree-surgeons use their downstairs loo and leave it in a state worse than a festival portaloo!)

Men are not using the ladies because there is a lack of toilet provision for men. Men can piss up a wall if they so desire; indeed within a minute of parking up in a city centre on Friday night, I saw two of them pissing up a wall.

Exactly this. I don't go in mens' because I feel like it. I have occasionally gone in the mens because it was that or wet myself. If a man is that desperate, they're not going to pick the womens, because there'll already be a massive queue. The only reason is validation. My male partner and children can wee in the garden with nothing more than an eyeroll, but I (in my younger, drunker days) have to find somewhere reasonably sheltered since a little more exposure is required if I want to wee behind a tree!

The self ID issue is admittedly a bit different and not ultimately driven by 'need' in many cases from what I've seen - although some trans women would undoubtedly not feel safe in the gents so this is a separate and distinct motivation.

However, the presence of urinals means that men have their genitalia on display outside of the privacy of a cubicle. Personally, I'd feel pretty uncomfortable if a woman walked in and inadvertently looked at my dick whilst I was mid piss.

I guess what I'm saying is that, trans/self ID issues aside, I'm not particularly enamoured with the idea of people explaining to me why I should be ok with thwm surprising me when I'm in a state of undress/exposed. It's not that dissimilar to the entitlement and lack of regard TRAs display when explaining why they have 'the right' to enter the opposite sex's space.

I'd probably not say anything tbh but I'd be a bit embarrassed if a stranger of the opposite sex walked in when I had my cock out.

The polite thing would probably be to ask a bloke to give a quick heads up first so nobody is 'caught by surprise'.

I'd probably not say anything tbh but I'd be a bit embarrassed if a stranger of the opposite sex walked in when I had my cock out.

The numerous men i've seen pissing in public didn't bat a fucking eyelid.

Whereas when a male was in a female toilets and i was the only one there I was petrified.

You worry about being embarrassed whereas we worry about being raped, assaulted or fucking strangled.

Jesus fucking wept.

ShortCircuit181 so am I right in saying you’ve never pissed in public? Never on a drunken night out, just stopped to piss on the nearest wall? I think that’d make you pretty unusual.

I’ve seen a lot of men do this, and I’ll be honest I’ve never actually seen their dicks cos a) most men will do as much as poss to shield their junk b) I’m not looking long enough

If I really need to piss, I can’t just fairly discreetly pee against a wall. I have to pull my jeans and undies round my ankles and squat in such a way that I don’t piss on my self.
This position exposes most everything, and would be hard to flee or fight from, all while nicely hobbled.

If it’s that ^ or the men’s - it’s kinda Hobson’s choice.

And none of my reasons for using a men’s is why a man would use a ladies.

I think in the past it would have been dealt with under the public order offences act or something like that.

I can well understand a bloke not being happy if a female came in while he was peeing at the urinals. But it isn't the same the other way round. Very few transwomen "pass", so my instinctive reaction would be "there's a man here" and feel more than just very uncomfortable. I do feel sorry for transpeople who are just trying to go about their lives quietly, but they're not the ones at the forefront of what is a very aggressive campaign.

I have two sons year 3 and 4, so they're past the age when I want to have eyes on them all the time when we're out, but they're still very much the age when I want to clock them every 30 seconds.

The older one refuses to go into the ladies with me, quite right too, and so the younger one refuses too (although I suspect that's mostly wanting to follow his brother).

I worry about this, but not much I can do, they're determined and they're right, they ought to use the gents. So we've got a system, I've explained I can't go in there but I will be outside and if anything happens they yell as loud as they can and I will come in and in an emergency that's OK.

I am so averse to going in the gents that I don't even like to stand right outside, I stand about 5 yards away bc I assume guys don't want me clocking them as they go in and out.

Even with all these arrangements there have been several occasions where one of them has been in there 20 minutes and I've had to open the door and call them to make sure they're OK, and one memorable visit when I got distracted by someone asking directions and one of them sneaked past me, got back to the car and I had to ask a guy to check if there was anyone small in the gents. I really, really don't want to go in there.

I just don't get it when people don't respect the privacy of others. It's absolutely hard wired into me.

I also have a year 3 daughter and she insists on a loo buddy every time bc she just wants to hold hands and chat. I'm so glad of that.

I'd probably not say anything tbh but I'd be a bit embarrassed if a stranger of the opposite sex walked in when I had my cock out.

Deary me. You're aware of men are afraid women will laugh at them; women are afraid men will kill them, right?

What's the worst that could happen? A woman is unimpressed by your trousersnake? On the other hand, what's the worst that could happen the other way around?

IrkThePurist said........
"There is no law prohibiting anyone from using the toilet of the opposite sex. I've seen men take their kids into the women's to change them or help them, and no one minds"

Absolutely not my experience.
I'm male
Twice I've taken my 2 (then under 5) little girls into the ladies toilets, both times because the disabled was occupied and one of them was about to wet her knickers.
On both occasions a woman that was in the toilets, that said nothing to me (even though on both occasions I said "Sorry about this" ) went out and complained to the management, and on both occasions and member of staff turned up immediately threatening to turf me out.
Once was a cinema once was an art center.
Ironically the woman in the cinema that complained had her 7 or 8 yr old boy with her in the ladies.
The logistics of a dad with two daughters means you can't use the gents, as I found out the hard way.

Secondly, a person who has obtained a Gender Rights Certificate must be treated for all purposes as if he/she was the opposite sex. What does this mean for the single-sex services? It has not been tested in law. On the face of it, it means that anybody with a GRC can go into single-sex services designed for the opposite sex and nobody can stop them. This is why self-ID is such a big deal, because it means that anyone can get a GRC.

Actually it's made very clear in the Equality Act that someone with a GRC can still be excluded.

There's a bit of misdirection somewhat I feel in parts of this thread.

Exemptions are unlikely to be triggered for toilet use.

There are some cases of tranwomen suing successfully.

www.lawcentres.org.uk/policy/news/news/kirklees-law-centre-wins-landmark-transgender-discrimination-case

A GRC is misdirection as you can never ask to see one, nor is anyone checking for them at the entry to toilets.

So making it easier or harder to get a GRC is irrelevant, unless a case goes to court for whatever reason, the vast majority of trans people will be using the public toilets that match their self-identified gender, or will likely not use a public toilet, and go on their way.
You hardly ever hear of these tings going to court, so in effect a GRC is not affecting current practices nor will it.

The main thing is about most of the discussion around toilet use, none of it can be enforced or policed. If we use visual cue's, more passable transwomen, ie. those that most match up to patriarchal beauty standards would benefit, and those that did not would be excluded, and of course there's the problem of GNC women being caught in the cross-fire.

This isn't new either, I doubt April Ashley or Caroline Cossey ever used the mens.

I don't know what the answer is, but demanding people use the toilets of their birth sex will not work, and there is no way of enforcing it.