Labour party invents new bollocks made-up non-existent definition for woman

[pisacake]

labour.org.uk/members/get-involved/national-youth-elections-2018/

Sixteen uses of the word 'self-defining woman'. Zero uses of 'female', 'biology', or plain 'woman'.

'Woman' is now literally meaningless. A woman can be a bog-standard heterosexual teenage male (Lily Madigan), if he says so.

And obviously with half the places reserved for 'self-defining women' (not 'women', 'self-defining women'), then there's not really any reason why men wouldn't define themselves a women, is there?

If misogynistic shits like Lily Madigan can 'self-define as a woman', well ALL men are women, aren't they?

The whole bloody human race is 'self-defined women'.

Stupid Labour.

So you leave the LP or stop voting for the LP- then what? What's the alternative? Why do you think the Tories keep getting back in?

I won't be guilted into voting for a party who clearly doesn't value women as a sex. Try again.

Oh wow okay.

I didn't actually mean or mention clothing? It's the same way as any biological woman presents as a woman. I assume you don't have your uterus out on show but I dunno maybe you wear make up or shop for clothes in women's sections (maybe you don't!! Also fine). You probably have a name that is associated with women but again maybe you don't.

I think some posters are being deliberately obtuse. I was asked a question and I answered using fairly innocuous and common terminology.

I "live as a woman" because I am a woman. I am biologically female. That is the only way to "live as a woman" - being a woman.

A man cannot "live as a woman" because he is not a woman. He can play "dress up", he can play a game of make-believe, if he wants. But he has no right to compel others to play that game or deny reality or tell what they know to be lies.

And if I "present as a woman" then I do so because I am biologically female. I am shaped like a woman, and I wear clothes that fit that shape. Those clothes could be a plain t-shirt and jeans, boots and I would still be clearly distinguished as a woman compared to man wearing similar plain t-shirt and jeans. Men and woman are visibly different.

I sound like a woman too, because of my biological reality. My voice is higher pitched.

ButFirstTea

So, how does a man "present as a woman"?

How does a man "live as a woman?"

Jesus. That's difficult to believe. It's so blatant.

Does some dunderhead in the back office think that this is a good nod to progressiveness, and it won't matter because it will hardly ever happen?

Because I'm quite certain that that mindset was behind the GRA in the first place.

The thinking that it won't be exploited.

It is only misogynistic men who will apply. The same way that it is only misogynistic men who want access to women's spaces.

Level-headed, rational transwomen aren't interested in usurping women in this way.

The Labour Party are idiots.

"So you leave the LP or stop voting for the LP- then what? What's the alternative? Why do you think the Tories keep getting back in?"

What then? Labour will realise it will never get back into power without the votes of real women. So it will change.

Or it will die and the left will have to rebuild.

I couldn't give a flying fuck, if it is anti woman then it's no fucking good to me or my daughter or future female descendents anyway.

Does anyone think the language used against trans people is reminiscent of during the fight for civil rights, some white people thinking black people were infringing on their freedoms, "separate but equal" mentality etc? I feel like in 50 years that will be how the struggle for trans rights is viewed.

There should be more trans women in STEM or politics or whatever field, they're currently underrepresented as women are.

There aren't any fields in which they are as underrepresented as women are. Because, you know, they're men. Socialised as men. And mostly built careers as men. In fact, they are pretty much dominant in tech.

Let trans people fight for their own short lists and affirmative action places.

Women need the ones they've already fought for.

But of course this won't happen and male trans are perfectly happy to throw women (including female trans) under the bus. How can anybody not see that transactivism is the most sexist movement in living memory?

You're wrong.

It is the equivalent of white supremacists declaring themselves black and demanding that black people validate their identity even while they continue to socialise with members of the KKK.

Caitlyn Jenner still attends the golf club where he was accepted as a member as Bruce. The golf club which excludes women.

Fuck that.

ButFirstTea

Don't feel got at. But you are saying things which have been said 1000 times. And which really do not hold water.

Seeing a person can live with a woman present as the woman is a rigourous reinforcement of gender stereotypes.

For everything that you would consider 'living as a woman', I can find you a million women who don't do that.

Because 'living as a woman' will only include stereotypes or superficial things like a dress.

Women are not disadvantaged because of how they present. They are disadvantaged on the basis of their biology.

And example is the transman, who identified as a man who was raped in the back of a taxi. Despite telling the police but I kept telling him I was a man.

Women who identify as men still have to take oral contraception. Can still get pregnant if they are raped. Will still need all the rights that all other women need.

'Living as', 'identifying as' meaningless unless it's a social situation, involving clothes, pronouns and names.

Do you think if every woman in the country suddenly identified as a man there would no longer be any female oppression? The pay gap would disappear? Maternal health would suddenly improve? Access to abortion? Diversity quotas would be instantly fixed?

If not, why not?

That was to Butfirsttea

There should be more trans women in STEM or politics or whatever field, they're currently underrepresented as women are

Is that actually true (the STEM bit in particular)? Anecdotally, I get the impression that transwomen overlap hugely with techy fields, especially software.

(On the point about 'having a typically female name and wearing make-up' -- oops, I'm a boy. Who'd a thought it?)

Does anyone think the language used against trans people is reminiscent of during the fight for civil rights, some white people thinking black people were infringing on their freedoms, "separate but equal" mentality etc?

Not this old canard again.

During the US civil rights movement, black people were the oppressed and white people were the oppressors. Which is why white people did not want to give up privilege by admitting black people.

In 21st century Britain, women are the oppressed and men are the oppressors. Which is why men are perpetuating their privilege by claiming a magical trans identity and insisting on colonising women's spaces.

Apples and oranges.

Transactivism is SEXIST.

Man here as well. Typically male name, don’t wear makeup, work in STEM. Still somehow, not sure how, managed to use my uterus and vagina to produce 3 children. And got royally shafted at work because of maternity leave.

ButFirstTea

You've got that back to front. Men are the class who are in power. It would be like white people identifying is black, and telling the black people they don't know anything about racism and they've got it all wrong.

And being trans adds an extra layer of benefit.

How else do you have a 19-year-old boy successfully bully a woman out of a job as women's officer only to assume a job of women's officer them self?

19-year-old boy who has tweeted about four times over women's issues and about 400 times over trans issues. Who says biology doesn't matter and thinks he can get pregnant?

When he is supposed to represent women and encourage more women into the party!

"Your points only count if you continue think of trans women and men and trans men as women. There should be more trans women in STEM or politics or whatever field, they're currently underrepresented as women are. "

No, transwomen are overrepresented in STEM.

Check out this programming survey.

blog.rust-lang.org/2016/06/30/State-of-Rust-Survey-2016.html

There were as many trans people as women (1.6%, grossly overrepresenting trans (should be ~0.1%), and underrepresenting women (should be 50%).

Also transwomen are men, so.

I'm a bit in two minds about the whole 'representation of transwomen' thing.

Transwomen are males, but they are a particular subset of males. If you say 'this tiny subset of males must be represented in every area' then that doesn't make much sense to me. I mean men divide into many categories, some men are more nurturing, some men are more macho, and clearly some subsets of male will go into particular jobs.

But to the extent that transwomen are a very specific tiny subgroup of males, it doesn't really make sense that we should expect them to be represented perfectly across the board. I mean there are about as many transpeople in the Uk as there are Malaysians, for example.

But there's no-one saying we must elect the first Malaysian MP (which Labour are steadfastly devoted to doing), or that we need a specific Malaysian feminist insight, or anything like that.

I mean Malaysian people are here, they suffer some discrimination I know a Malaysian chap somewhat slight & effete, he was beaten up by racists while out with his kids. Malaysians go about their lives but they aren't appearing on TV as the most important minority in society, or demanding that we redefine the English language, or anything like this.

But do please explain why men who dress differently (or not!) are so much more important than Malaysians?

"It is the equivalent of white supremacists declaring themselves black and demanding that black people validate their identity even while they continue to socialise with members of the KKK."

I don't think demanding equality and representation removes anything from anyone else. That is the argument that's been used throughout history, that allowing X to vote, to integrate, to marry etc will somehow remove rights from whoever the standard is at the time. I'm sorry I don't see it your way and I feel really sad that you're all upset about trans issues. I'm not trying to be confrontational here I promise. I would like to achieve a full equality inclusive of all parts of LGBT+.

Sorry I should say Labour are steadfastly devoted to electing first transgender MP.

"How else do you have a 19-year-old boy successfully bully a woman out of a job as women's officer only to assume a job of women's officer them self?"

Lily was elected though, it wasn't a coup.

I answered using fairly innocuous and common terminology.

It's not "innocuous" as it's a lie. And it's not "common terminology" to most people.

"But do please explain why men who dress differently (or not!) are so much more important than Malaysians?"

They aren't! Diversity quotas exist for this reason! Maybe not specifically Malaysians, okay, but of course it's hugely important to have a number of gay men, black men, muslim men, gay black muslim men represented too! Diversity matters throughout every part of society and seeing yourself represented is hugely important.

I said hugely important twice in two sentences, my brain is fading.

ButFirstTea I was just curious because you mentioned the possibility of men who 'weren't really trans' possibly taking advantage of these policies but since self definition is all it takes I wondered what the difference is between one man saying he's a woman and another man saying he is a woman. How would you tell the difference? What makes one trans and the other one not?

"19-year-old boy who has tweeted about four times over women's issues and about 400 times over trans issues. "

Yes, this. I check his Twitter & FB occasionally and he is in a TRANS echo chamber. His followers on Twitter are trans people. His friends on FB are trans people. Ok, there's the odd hand maiden chucked in, such as his girlfriend, but fundamentally it's a group of men talking to each other. And you don't have to click very far to get some depraved pervert, either.

He and his chums have fuck all whatsoever to do with being a woman. Absolutely nothing.

If you want a trans officer fine (though do consider my Malaysian officer proposal as well, all those underrepresented Malays, it's very unfair), just don't conflate it with the women's officer, and if you have 600 women's officers you only need one or two trans officers, because that's the appropriate ratio.

. I would like to achieve a full equality inclusive of all parts of LGBT+.

Excellent.

So I can name these transwomen as being both famous or claim they represent women. Bruce Jenner, India Willoughby, Shon Faye, Jane Fae, Kelly Maloney, Juno Roche, Pippa Bunce, Juno Dawson, Munroe Bergdorf.

Could you give me, say just TWO, transmen who claim they represent men or are famous for being transmen in a man's world?

Come on, let's include all transpeople.