Labour party invents new bollocks made-up non-existent definition for woman

[pisacake]

labour.org.uk/members/get-involved/national-youth-elections-2018/

Sixteen uses of the word 'self-defining woman'. Zero uses of 'female', 'biology', or plain 'woman'.

'Woman' is now literally meaningless. A woman can be a bog-standard heterosexual teenage male (Lily Madigan), if he says so.

And obviously with half the places reserved for 'self-defining women' (not 'women', 'self-defining women'), then there's not really any reason why men wouldn't define themselves a women, is there?

If misogynistic shits like Lily Madigan can 'self-define as a woman', well ALL men are women, aren't they?

The whole bloody human race is 'self-defined women'.

Stupid Labour.

But everyone else seems unwilling, because they know they will get publicly trounced and set upon by the wolves. I can't say I blame them.

Welsh, I was at the Glasgow talk this week. One of the transactivists was a tall young man with purple hair who sat with the most spiteful smirk on his face. The thought that MRAs like him will be able to go anywhere I can go once this awful law goes through, and presumably revel in making women feel uncomfortable, is horrendous.

Like the Article 50 challenge, the reason that they are being so violent and venal is the very high probability that a legal challenge will win.

What damage they have done to Labour Party is another question.

It will of course have implications for the Green Party's line too.

It’s funny, isn’t it, how ‘identifying as a woman’ often doesn’t seem to include having the concern for the safety of female people, particularly female children, that Welsh talks about, something that is common to most adult human females.

doesn’t seem to include having the concern for the safety of female people, particularly female children

That would be because mothers/women are bigots hipsterfun , according to Clive Lewis and his handmaidens.

It is very 'Brave New World'y when sexual 'fun' trumps mother hood and protecting our daughters. Huxley also reveals the nuanced approach to child safety, that we have raised in our concerns too.

I found the novel unreadable; but it is worth googling to see how many of its ideas are being played out by both labour and other political power wielders on the left, right and in the middle, at the moment.

It is interesting the way Huxley writes about this.
This student has written a good summary of it:
kaitlynjaser.weebly.com/marriage-and-family.html

woman

It's a long time since I read Brave New World, but I think Huxley is highlighting the dangers of a concept that didn't really have a name back when he wrote the book:

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Groupthink

This is why I distrust Momentum and will never vote for Labour as long as Corbyn or any other Momentum stooge is in charge. Giving TRAs free rein, pretending there isn't a problem with misogyny on the hard left, shutting down discussion on Brexit at the party conference, minimising anti-Semitism within the Labour party, minimising the atrocious behaviour of Momentum cheerleaders against opponents within Labour... all part of the same problem.

Centrists get a bad name, but when the alternatives are left-wing Statist oppression or right-wing rampant individualism, it seems the obvious position to take. I think the TRAs are having so much success because they exploit the (false) right-wing concept of the completely self-defining person, but are using Momentum's left-wing groupthink tactics to impose their views on others. The Centrist approach - that we should put ideology to one side and consider policies in the context of how people actually behave and what they actually need - seems to have gotten lost recently.

Thanks, I forgot that word: 'Groupthink' DeltaWave Completely agree with your post. I had no idea it was that bad until I saw what actual labour MPs and councillors are writing. Interesting times.

What DeltaWave said.

What will the angry tweeters do if they lose the legal challenge?

Carry on tweeting?

Organise and march?

Mount their own legal challenge?

I think the TRAs are having so much success because they exploit the (false) right-wing concept of the completely self-defining person, but are using Momentum's left-wing groupthink tactics to impose their views on others.

Brilliant insight Delta.

And your next point is also absolutely correct, and should inform the approach feminists take to challenging this madness.

The Centrist approach - that we should put ideology to one side and consider policies in the context of how people actually behave and what they actually need - seems to have gotten lost recently.

Keep focusing on definitions, policies, outcomes - force politicians and policy makers to grapple with how erasing the concept of sex in law will work in the real world (spoiler: it will fuck up everything).

My only response to my sharing on Facebook was a question (by a man)

So, are transwomen not women?

I replied by asking him to define women.

What BS though, the Centrist approach is to take money from huge corporations, brainwash people into doing what's best for huge corporations, see "Progress" group led by JS Sainsbury. They really have people's best interests at heart

The centrist approach leads to vacuous non idea politics, led by vacuous non idea money grabbing politicians.

This is why politics has recently split so vehemently into hard right vs hard left groups.

Sorry, sharing of the gofundme page.

(Tor donkeyskin and deltawave)

The centrist approach leads to political stability, with one party in charge, and all parties wish to have that.

Now we have a right wing government being shored up by an even more right wing evangelical group.

The response has to be centrist, otherwise voters feel disenfranchised.

Centrism will either ignore the hard ends or attempt to acknowledge and resolve the tensions between them. I think New Labour tended towards ‘ignore’ and that created the mess in which they now find themselves.

policies in the context of how people actually behave and what they actually need

Haha. Ahaha ha ha. And who are we so blindly trusting to assess how women actually behave and what we actually need?

That reads suspiciously like a ‘know your place’ attitude to me

I just wanted to say that I'm grateful to ButFirstTea for staying here as long as she did and patiently trying to make some sensible points. I think so much of this thread is shameful. It must be horrible for the parents of transgender children (I could be one) to read some of the posts. I'm happy the Labour party hasn't given in to the recent media push against trans rights.

Fortunate then, that the courts will decide on the legality of 'labour''s stance. Interesting times.

I just wanted to say that I'm grateful to ButFirstTea for staying here as long as she did and patiently trying to make some sensible points. I think so much of this thread is shameful. It must be horrible for the parents of transgender children (I could be one) to read some of the posts. I'm happy the Labour party hasn't given in to the recent media push against trans rights.

What rights do trans people need that they do not already have?

So because you have a transgender child, you think it's ok to trash the rights of women?

What is shameful? Make a point, rather than throwing buns and legging it

Women are the ones who are best placed to know what the risks are and what we need.

It has been shown time and time again that the vast majority of men are broadly ignorant of the level of harassment / assault that we experience when we're just out and about, and that when told they have a quick reaction sequence >> oh my god why didn't you say anything >> why don't you report it if it's that bad >> it probably isn't that bad >> you're exaggerating >> tarring all men with the same brush >> stop it and go away and then NOTHING changes.

Men in society feel zero responsibility for the behaviour of other men in society, laws do not change, police attitudes do not change, people still turn a blind eye give the benefit of the doubt etc etc. Any excuse. Fundamentally I think lots of men only really care at all about women they know and care about, they seem to have difficulty raising any interested in "women as a group". Maybe they don't see women as a group? Which would explain why they are AOK with the definition being changed / removed. They are always very keen to say that women don't get on, that we're bitchy and horrible to each other, and when we do get together there are many put-downs "mothers meeting" "coven" "gossiping" etc etc

I think as much as men don't seem to understand or care about us (1 group to the other), there is some fairly important stuff that we are missing in why that is. So, I feel that women and girls generally do feel a connection, and this is borne out of shared experiences. Often negative ones - the harassment is a big one like a massive shared secret. And then the stuff about biology - contraception, pregnancy, childbirth, periods, menopause. Not all women will experience all but we pretty much all share some of it. We are sympathetic to each others stories around these things. Often because we have been there too. I mean women aren't perfect and many can be nasty but still we are a group, a disctinct group with our own issues caused by both society and biology which bind us together here and around the world. I can go to a different country and they will know the same stories. In some countries they will be worse, in others better but they will be the same. Poor behaviour of men. Periods. Pregnancy. Menopause. and so on.

What do men feel a connection over? As far as I can see it's football, and for many groups of young men, putting down women, sometimes just through watching gross porn together and laughing, sometimes by doing stuff in real life. Then there's stuff that they choose, hobbies. Do they feel a connection to all other men? I assume so but I don't know. Certainly the way they fail to see women as a group either means that they don't (so they don't get it), or that they simply don't see women as people.

Many women on this thread are trans according to recent definitions.

And that's very interesting in iteself.

The very women and girls who would have been trying to smash gender in past decades are now simply opting out.

I think there are 2 routes to more radical feminism, from what I have seen here and on FB.

1 is being GNC and therefore noticing the different treatment and disliking it, wanting to change it . This was my route, I have felt this way since about age 12

2 is horrible experiences at the hands of men

Oh actually now there is a 3rd which is pulling many women into online radfem groups. Women who are not actually radfem in their views generally which can cause problems. That is being gender critical. There is a real issue that right wing / conservative women are coming to these groups because of TRAs behaviour, but of course then there are all sorts of problems and they often end up getting chucked out! But, some will read and become more radical, maybe change their views. There is a big uptick in interest in radical feminism due to this movement.