Labour party invents new bollocks made-up non-existent definition for woman

[pisacake]

labour.org.uk/members/get-involved/national-youth-elections-2018/

Sixteen uses of the word 'self-defining woman'. Zero uses of 'female', 'biology', or plain 'woman'.

'Woman' is now literally meaningless. A woman can be a bog-standard heterosexual teenage male (Lily Madigan), if he says so.

And obviously with half the places reserved for 'self-defining women' (not 'women', 'self-defining women'), then there's not really any reason why men wouldn't define themselves a women, is there?

If misogynistic shits like Lily Madigan can 'self-define as a woman', well ALL men are women, aren't they?

The whole bloody human race is 'self-defined women'.

Stupid Labour.

QuentinSummers

Sorry for my half dozen posts of discussion in this 9 page thread, though I sincerely doubt I derailed anything since every single page has opinions which are different to mine. I was enjoying some of the discussion but you can easily just skip past my posts if it bothers you.

But in all honestly, do you want Labour in power when they are off their heads with this shit?

I don't. I'm v frightened of what could actually happen if they have power. Look what they are doing without power

Snowdrop18

Thanks, I am still reading! Honestly with respect I really do understand what's happening. I work in policy (not gender admittedly) and I have worked with and known activists in different areas (including trans activists but not limited to them!). So I really am clued up but I appreciate that not everyone will be.

First Tea

I very much doubt that this is your first visit to FWR and the gender critical world. So stop the disingenuous crap. Bring a real argument if you want to and not the ' ooo, why would you think that is not right BS."

The trans debates on MN are well known, and if you are a Labour member, AND have been on MN for more than 5 mins, you will know that well.

If you have been on MN for less than 5 mins, what brought you here and why this particular thread?. Because there are loads on FWR you can read at leisure

Well, that's me told!

Told my oh about the term "self-identifying woman" and he doesn't see the problem. His actual response was " Well, you ARE a women, so you must identify as one, so what does it matter what they put on the form?" Then, another classic " You're making an issue where there isn't one!"

When I tried to explain he wasn't interested in listening and just said: "I don't get why you're so riled up about it; it's just words, get over yourself."

I do think it is important to be respectful of others opinions and choices. I have learnt a lot about how women's rights are under threat on these pages. But also some quite rude and dismissive posts towards trans people generally, which I really don't think are fair, nor do they help the cause of women's rights.

ButFirst, I was very struck by the answer I got from one of our regular-ish trans-posters, when I asked the question "what rights would self ID give trans people access to which the GRA doesn't give them?" Her reply was "None - the GRA is fine as it stands, it protects rights to employment and housing and healthcare, and makes harrassment and discrimination illegal. It comes with some gatekeeping, but that gatekeeping protects both women and transwomen alike from the piss-takers and predators."

That for me is the crux of it - women and genuine transwomen both need protection from harrassment and equal rights when it comes to employment and the like. But our experiences are not the same, and the prejudice we encounter and the threats of violence come from different places, and there is nothing wrong with recognising that. A fact which many transwomen themselves are on board with - see, for e.g., Miranda Yardley's activism.

AssignedPuuurfectAtBirth

Really sorry but I don't understand? I don't actually know what FWR is but no this isn't my first time on mumsnet obv. How am I being disingenuous?

This thread was on the active threads page so I read it and commented, is that not the done thing??

@ButFirstTea "Honestly with respect I really do understand what's happening"

so you're happy with women only spaces allowing biological men now e.g. hospital wards, toilets?

There should be more trans women in STEM

There are tons of MTFs in STEM. They're not underrepresented. That's the point.

2cold4me - show him a photo of Danielle Muscato, who has successfully hounded a couple of women out of a women's homeless shelter for allegedly being "transphobic". Or point out that schools in Scotland now have guidelines allowing teenage boys with penises who self-identify to share accommodation with teenage girls, and banning schools from telling the girls' parents that this is happening. Or show him a photo of Laurel Hubbard on the podium with women half his size and ask if he thinks it's a fair contest. But I get your frustration. I get so pissed off with men, who are not going to be impacted by this in the slightest, getting a lovely warm virtue signalling glow from minimising the legitimate concerns of women.

Really sorry but I don't understand? I don't actually know what FWR is but no this isn't my first time on mumsnet obv. How am I being disingenuous?

Feminism and Women's Rights. To be fair it's not called that any more. But no, generally you don't sound hugely "clued up" about this issue, no. With respect.

So I really am clued up

With respect, you think that people are assigned a sex at birth, women's and trans rights are the same and that transwomen aren't men.

@Snowdrop

I don't think I'm happy or angry about it either way. I think trans women need access to toilets and hospital wards too. I don't have a problem with them using women's toilets but I see many people here do. However it can be dangerous for trans people to use the toilet matching their biological sex too can't it? What's the answer?

2Cold

Stick with it. It took me a quite a while with my v well read, left wing DH. I don't think he thought it would actually happen. The sports thing was a peaktransing thing for him, esp the Iranian basketball team

And tell him women don't ID into80,00 rapes in the UK per year, 2 women murdered per week, the gender pay gap, millions of chinese girl babies being murdered because they were girls in the one baby policy, the 300 girls kidnapped by Boko haram, FMG, many girls who can't go to school in the UK because they don't have sanitary protection.......

You know, xxxxxx

What is the danger in transwomen using the men's toilets?

@Ereshkigal

Thanks for the explanation, I've never come across that acronym before!

Maybe I don't come across like that, fair enough. But this is a message board and I'm just on here to discuss things and see what others think, I'm not writing a thesis! I know how I feel and what I think and I respect that others disagree. Maybe I'm not convincing anyone of anything but that's not my aim.

Why don't we let gay men use the ladies too? And shy ones? It is after all just a sanctuary for men who don't like toxic masculinity.

@ButFirstTea - I do understand that a biological male dressed as a woman might feel under threat in a man's toilet.

but I'm afraid he is still a man and if he feels unsafe in the men's, he should understand why I feel unsafe with him in the women's. So the answer would be separate bathrooms for transgender I guess.

But as you can see from the Travis and TopShop changing room saga, and Lily Madigan, and Hampstead Women's Pond, the issue is that they want access to women's spaces. They don't want to use an alternative.

also, do you really think Danielle Muscato is under threat if they walk into a man's toilet?

And furthermore, if self ID goes through, the women's toilets will no longer be safe spaces - because any fucker who fancies it can self-ID as a woman or gender fluid or whatever and come into them - regardless of whether they are genuinely trans or just a regular common or garden male predator chancing his arm.

That's the supreme irony of the situation. Transwomen quietly used the women's toilets if they passed on a kind of honour-system basis for years, and there was no problem. Now however women and genuine transwomen just quietly leading their own lives will have the shouty aggressive activist TRA who identifies as a woman alternate Thursdays because he's put his pink hoody on that day rather than a khaki one and fancies a bit of aggro (if you don't think this will happen, look at the video footage of the Hyde Park Corner attacks - these are the type of men who will want to force their way into women's toilets.)

I think trans women need access to toilets and hospital wards

Trans everyones already have access to toilets and hospital wards. What rights do they not have now that you think they need?

I didn't say they needed rights they don't have. I just mean they have to go somewhere. Trans people can be at risk too, they're not all out to attack women.

Yes, and without accessing the opposite sex's spaces they have somewhere to go.

@ButFirstTea "I didn't say they needed rights they don't have"

so what are you saying, I'm starting to be a bit lost.

Yes, trans people are at risk, no one is disputing that, but nothing in the GRA or in the Labour Party material linked in the OP is going to help anyone, and it will definitely hinder women.

I can't help noticing you have no comment to make about Travis or Muscato.

I feel like I've said what I mean loads of times!

Sorry I didn't see where anyone asked me about Travis or Muscato, what should I comment on? I'm getting lost in all the comments!