I'm not beautiful...is that ok?

[TheHodgeHeg]

I'm having a dilemma about how to feel about my appearance and would love your opinions, as feminists, on this issue.

Like many women I struggle with low self esteem. When I look at myself in the mirror on a low day I see a spotty face, crooked teeth, big nose etc. etc.

I recognise that my pre-occupation with my appearance is, at least in part, a product of our patriarchal society which values beauty above every other characteristic in a woman. Heroines in books, films, TV shows etc are generally beautiful and sure maybe they're also funny and intelligent but beauty matters above everything. I'm sure this has skewed my perspective of myself.

My usual tactic when I'm feeling down is to tell myself that, no, I am beautiful, and think back to times when someone has complimented me. I'm not sure that this is productive though and I worry that it just perpetuates the cycle that beauty is absolutely paramount and a non-negotiable quality that a woman must have.

It would surely be better for me to accept that I'm not beautiful and that's ok. I accept other failings in my character and such failings don't rule my head as much as this one does (e.g. not being as funny as a comedian, as rich or driven as a CEO etc.)

I do find this attitude difficult to reconcile with how I'd parent any future daughter though. It really messed me up that my parents told me I wasn't pretty whilst praising the looks of my sister and other kids. But surely the philosophy that they were applying was what I'm trying to come to terms with now.

God, society (and my self esteem) are fucked up. I would want to tell any future daughter that she's beautiful but at the same time I want to break the cycle that beauty matters so much. I'm not sure the actions of one person in the face of overwhelming resistance from society is productive though. My parents actions were the opposite of productive for me and I think they've left me very confused.

Age is indeed a great leveller, but the bar keeps rising for middle aged women. I'm 46 and Instagram tells me I should be skin cared, made up and stylish to the max.

Sometimes I'm in favour of this, my gran at 46 literally looked like an old woman whereas my friends and I have 'still got it'. Why give up because we're not young any more?

But sometimes I hate it because I just don't have the energy to give a shit how I look. There's no escape is there.

I can relate to the carousel totally. At heart I'm not really interested in looks, make up or fashion. I'm most comfortable with bare face and comfy clothes. Then I notice how attractive my sister or my friends are who do care about these things and start wishing I look like them and dig out the make up until I get bored again and so it continues.

I truly believe everyone is beautiful. However society teaches us that only one cookie cutter look is beautiful. Wouldn't want us knowing we're all beautiful as we are as then we wouldn't need to buy this products etc

It's ok to not be beautiful and to know that you're not beautiful.

I'm not. Never was. Marginally attractive as a teenager at most. Still happy and doing what I want to do :)

PinkChestnut I think objectively that's not the case though.

I'm my view, just like any other normal human attribute such as intelligence or height there is a distribution of women along a bell curve of attractiveness. It's a shame that society has deemed beauty the be all and end all but that's how it is. I haven't found it helpful when people have said to me in discussions like this "nooo, you're beautiful" it's shutting down a discussion about why we value beauty so much and what we can do to get out of this cycle. More helpful was my partner saying "Er yeah, you're not a supermodel but I love you. When I look at you I see you, more than the sum of your features. You. You're my [silly nickname]" (paraphrasing but that was the idea). To me that's honest and it's...right...

Why does everyone have to be beautiful? Every woman I should say.

Your partner sounds like a good 'un. It makes me uncomfortable when mine compliments my looks. I would far rather he said something like yours. I really don't value beauty in my Relationships at all. It wouldn't even make the list for what I want in a friend

I don't tell my partner he's tall (he's not). I do tell him I love him as he is and wouldn't wish he was taller (true).

So why do we tell women they're attractive (untrue) rather than saying, no you're not attractive but that's ok. Your happiness does not depend on your attractiveness.

I tell my daughters they are beautiful, because they are beautiful to me. When I look at them I see the most beautiful girls in the world. Objectively, I know they are not model material, but that does not stop them being incredibly beautiful in my eyes, so why shouldn't I tell them that?

Similarly, my DH makes me feel like I the most desirable, sexy woman in any room. Objectively, I know I'm not, but it is lovely to have one special someone who thinks you are.

What I am saying is that beauty is in the eye of the beholder. People you love never look ugly to you. My DH tells me I am gorgeous because I am gorgeous to him.

So the answer is - if you are loved, you are beautiful in the only way that really matters.

Everyone gets old and ugly. It's not worth worrying about.

I'd disagree with you on a number of points.

Firstly I disagree beauty in humans is to do with a patriarchy. In fact in my experience women can be the most judgemental of other women.

Secondly attractiveness in both sexes is perceived as a positive quality.

Thirdly very few people see beauty as all that's required in eithe gender. In fact over whelmingly being intelligent with a good personality is perceived as equally important. No one wants to be or envies the "dumb blonde" to use a typical stereotype.

In terms of my daughter, yes I will not like she is attractive. Yes I tell her she looks great or is pretty. I want her to have good self esteem and I would be lying to say society has no importance against it.

However I also tell her how smart she is. And she is hugely intelligent in her final year of her law degree.

I also tell her when she's being a nice person. That I love her and she's cared for.

I also believe beauty or attractiveness is in the eye of the beholder. We all perceive different things as attractive or beautiful. There is no universal standard.

In addition many things can make people seem more attractive than a still photo would indicate. Personality, intelligence, confidence to name but a few.

So where as I agree that society places a level of importance against beauty I really don't think that's due to men, or that's all society places importance against.

And lastly you're wrong on Hollywood stereo types. You say Harry Potter. Harry Potter the lead is hermione granger and the films focus primarily on her intelligence and abilities. There is no ugly swan to duckling there.

Your girls sound very switched on about this issue, so this probably wouldn't affect them, but one thing I would say is don't talk about how pretty the other girls are or how good they look in their clothes. I don't think you would anyway but my mum did it to me. It was unintentional but it was clear how much she admired a few of the beautiful girls I knew (particularly the ones who were also clever and talented at extra-curriculars) whereas to me she would only say things like "will you please brush your hair? You can't go out like that."
I am not attractive so I'm glad she didn't say "oh you're so beautiful" but at the same time it was clear I didn't measure up and she would have preferred me to be pretty.

Bluntness
First: Just because an aspect of the patriarchy is perpetuated by women does not mean that it isn't a symptom of the unequal society that we live in. Women can be sexist and misogynistic just like men can be.

Second: I agree the attractiveness is important in both sexes but men can be other things: intelligent, funny, rich, powerful etc. The feeling that I perceive from the media and society in general is that a woman's worth is dependent on these other characteristics in part but that her appearance is important in a way that it isn't for men. This is borne out by the lack of "normal" looking women in media (although happily I do think that is changing somewhat). Plus the scrutinisation of the attractiveness of women who do appear in the media.

Third: this is just my opinion but, honestly, in my low moments I'd love to be the "dumb blonde". Incidentally I believe this is another misogynistic stereotype - that an attractive woman must be unintelligent. I agree with you that, for the majority of people, looks are not the most important characteristic in a partner. But, from my perspective, society would have us (women) believe the opposite.

There is an ugly duckling to swan moment in Harry Potter. It's when Hermione's teeth are shrunk using a spell and she then glams herself up for the ball proving that she does in fact have the quality necessary in a female hero, incredible beauty. Not sure if this is a factor in the films.

I understand and agree with you about your children being beautiful in your eyes, you being beautiful in your partners eyes etc. but do you not think it would be healthier for them and us to hear "I love you for who you are" rather than deal with the baggage of being beautiful (or not).

I agree with some of your feminist points. ie number 2.

But this is not really a problem. The problem is that you have low self esteem.

I don't have low self esteem. I am not pretty. Certainly not beautiful. But I scrub up ok. When I get dressed up to go to a friends 40th, I look nice. I know this. Every day I wear a bit of make up and wear clothes that flatter my figure, even though my figure isn't fabulous, its ok.

None of this bothers me at all. I'm quite accepting of this. Most people aren't beautiful. Most of the mums in the playground (say 500 of them) when I go and pick up ds2 later, are distinctly average. Few stand out.

So why does this bother you?

Maybe instead of focusing on the feminist side of this, you should address the core problem -your poor self esteem.

Also depends what you think is beautiful.
I saw Jennifer Lopez on carpool with James Corden, the other day. I haven't really noticed before, how incredibly naturally beautiful she is. Outstandingly so.

But most of us aren't J-Lo, are we?

J-Lo is beautiful, and I can state that without it in any way affecting how I feel about myself and my self esteem. Like I said in my earlier post, there are 'beautiful' people - the J-Los of this world who are genetically blessed - and the rest of us. The rest of us will still be very very beautiful to the people who truly love us, and that is what matters.

Haven't RTFT yet but my tuppence worth is that "beauty" as I understand it is entirely subjective.

I don't conform in any way to current societal expectations of feminine beauty at all ....in fact as I have reached my 30s and gained a lot more confidence in myself I have gone out of my to look less socially attractive!

I still believe myself to be beautiful and attractive- but now only to people who see past superficiality, or who actively like the dykey punk look!

I don't shave anything, except for most of my head.
Dreads.
Acne.
Dont even pluck my eyebrows.
Have a little black tache I'm quite fond of!
Wear mens clothes.
Never wear heels or dresses.
When I do wear make up its more Adam Ant than Amanda Holden.

I no longer get wolf whistled at....most men are repulsed by me and I like it like that.

But put me in a punk gig, or at a festival and I'm suddenly Angelina Jolie!

I think modern standards make women paranoid, desperate to fit in and be fund attractive by the majority of people.

Its so fucking liberating to just think "fuck it".

A good friend is constantly comparing herself to other women, it makes her miserable, and she spends a fortune on clothes and make up, she gets loads of attention but she hates it.

Another friend cheerfully admits she looks odd at best.....but to me her personality, confidence and live make her one of the most beautiful women in the world.

We need to stop measuring our worth by how people view our looks as measured against some arbitrary standard.

"We're fed a myth that the majority of women are stunningly beautiful".

No I disagree. Few people are beautiful. Fewer still are stunning. Most of us are average.

Where do you get this from OP?

Op, do you read the daily mail? Look at the side bar of shame?

Yes a woman's looks are important. As are a mans. And the hermione moment at the ball is one in many films and Thr over whelming emphasis with that character is not her looks but her intellect.

I wonder if you're so down on your looks that you're heavily focused on everyone else's and overly sensitive.

To put it into context I for one don't think thr media focuses only on a woman's looks. I think only certain corners of the media do. If I read a business article about a female ceo, it's not focused on her beauty. If I read the daily mail side bar of shame it is.

I also don't feel it's of primary importance either, it's one of many criteria that as humans we judge other humans.. But I don't struggle with low self esteem and I'm comfortable in my own skin.

As such, I suspect your view of the world is skewed due to you're sensitivity and low self esteem. You're heavily focused on beauty and blowing it out of proportion.

The Harry Potter example is proof of this. There is no doubt or discussion to be had that all those films focus heavily on the granger characters intellect and not looks. But all you can see it the one scene where she goes to the ball...

And no I don't think it would be better to refuse to comment on my daughters looks or attractiveness. She has no "baggage" to deal with, just like I have no "baggage " to deal with. she's a sensible young woman with many positive attributes, be it attractiveness, intelligence, confidence, kindness, empathy or drive, and I will continue as a parent to ensure she has good self esteem. I will not refuse to mention her looks in the pretence that society does not place any value at all on it.

Why should I? Because you personally wish the world to stop valuing it? This will never happen. Beauty in men and women have been a value since the year dot. Simply they are not the only quality.

Should I also not mention she is intelligent or smart? In case someone who feels they are not is upset that thr world values it?

Yes I love her for her. And yes she knows that. But this will never mean I should only ever say that and refuse point blank to validate any of her other qualities be they good or bad.

I think that most people have attractive qualities.
Qualities i would say were beautiful. Its hard to see in yourself tho isnt it? I think you get so used to your own appearance and its so caught up in your mood and experiences that really you have no idea how you appear. Ive known some incredibly traditionally beautiful women with rock bottom self esteem.

I had very low self esteem as a child and a lot f it centred on appearance.
I remember my mother was always saying how beautiful I was and trying to dress me up in clothes i was uncomfortable in and do my hair etc etc.... at the time I thought she was making fun of me for being awkward and dumpy (she was very slender and elegant) But now i look back on it ive realised that thats genuinely what she thought and also that she was trying to be nice to me because those were the things that she valued so she thought it was a nice compliment to try and dress me up etc.... Ive realised this in part because of how I feel when i look at my son... I honestly think he is the most beautiful thing I have ever seen, he takes my breath away with his curls and his big eyes.... and I know maybe its just love and other people wont see it, like i think my husband is the most attractive man in the world but some other women are just like 'meh' about him. That strength of feeling about my sons appearance makes me realise that beauty doesnt actually have that much to do with appearance if you see what i mean?

So now i see that even though i felt dumpy and awkward its very possible that my mother genuinely did think i was gorgeous.
And it follows on the all the people who care about you probably do like your appearance because they have some sort of love for you.
Its a cliche but beauty really is in the eye of the beholder. Its not what adverts and tv tell you it is.

As ive got older and more comfortable with who I am in general I have actually felt more attractive... even though according to all media sources id probably be considered less so (heavier, older, more tired!) but i genuinely feel so much more 'beautiful' now than I did when i was a teenager. I think its just about being happy!!

Bluntness of course Hermione is more than just beautiful. The point I'm making is that a heroine can be smart, kind and all that but it's not enough unless she's also very beautiful. The fact that it's mentioned in a small scene doesn't change the fact that it's there.

I recognise that my issue with this is down to low self esteem but what I'm questioning is why is my self esteem so affected by my looks rather than other lacking qualities. I don't expect the world to change and not value beauty. Of course we should value beauty but I think (for women) it's given an unfair position ahead of other qualities. We seem to fundamentally disagree on that point.

As I said in the opening post, my feelings about this are difficult to reconcile with how I'd want to bring up my daughter. On the one hand I would want to praise her appearance to try and help her self esteem but, on the other hand, I wouldn't want her to struggle with reconciling how she feels about herself with what I've said to her.

I wouldn't presume to tell you or anyone how to raise their children. I would like to question my own feelings on the matter however.

Did you experiment with different looks as a teen OP?

Have you ever been a goth, or barbie-like in pastels pinks and blues?

I think the more you experiment with this stuff the more you realise people react to the ‘show’ of how you present, rather than some kind of innate unchanagable value of appearance judged against an external scale.

I do think you have a skewed and warped view op. You state we see female beauty as the be all and end all. My view is it's one of many qualities in a human. Just like hermione, where all her other qualities are put first, and the looks thing is no more than a mere mention in a small scene in very many movies. So it's not first and foremost is it?

No one is disputing it's not valued. What's being disputed is your view it's the be all and end all.

With regards to your daughter, women who grow up with parents who never ever tell them they look good, praise them in this manner tend to have very very low self esteem. "No one told me I was pretty growing up". Kids who are brought up like this think it's not mentioned because something is wrong with them. They do not live in isolation and understand from an early age the value of looks in society "aren't you a handsome boy" and other qualities " aren't you a clever girl". Refusing to mention your child's appearance and compliment it will probably damage their self esteem.

And why don't we tell people they are unattractive? Because few people are. As a pp said. Most people have attractive qualities. I know very many people due to the size of the org I work for and I would not class one of those as unattractive. Unattractive usually exists when someone lacks self confidence, is negative and bitter, this is what's perceived as unattractive.

I do think you've got a hang up here that could do with some councilling, because what you're posting isn't healthy. And for your kids sake, you need to be able to heal yourself on this.

I am fat and saggy. Even when I was fit and lean I struggled with my self-image, as I have always had broad shoulders, wide hands and feet, solid wrists and ankles, and no waist to speak of.

I have a very slender teenaged dd. She recently found some of my old clothes at my parents' house, and loves wearing them. I look at dd and realise that that was me 30+ years ago. I must have been as slender as she is! But at the time I could not get past the fact that I was neither waif-like, nor curvaceous. All those years I thought I was fat, when I never was.

It's true that being told "But you are beautiful!" doesn't really help. I've rarely been told that I am beautiful, and then only if I've made a special effort or have lost weight. Which just reinforces the unhelpful belief that I'm not, in my ordinary self, worth noticing.

Why am I fat? Because I self-medicate with food.

Why am I comfortable in my now-decrepit body? Because I have recognised this. And because I have released myself from feeling guilty about it. And because I have made the conscious effort to cherish and value myself, rather than constantly seek affirmation from outside. Not that I always succeed! But that's ok, too.

On the one hand I would want to praise her appearance to try and help her self esteem

Praise:

kind, sparky, determined, generous, courageous, reliable, funny, hard-working, resourceful, original...

All these words are possibly even more important than 'beautiful' in developing self-esteem. But even more important is that praise does not develop self-esteem. Appreciation and trust do that.

Self esteem comes from knowing from an early age that you are valued and loved, not from knowing or believing that you are pretty.

Prettiness only comes into it if a child has been given a message that her prettiness (or lack of it) is the reason she is valued and loved (or considered less valuable and loveable). This is not, in my view, an OK thing to do to a child.