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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

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A letter to the TERFs

653 replies

Helen1111 · 13/12/2017 18:36

__

To the women shrieking transphobic abuse on Mumsnet, in the name of women's rights,

Ten, fifteen years from now, when the world you wish for has come to pass, I ask you to remember me.

Remember me when you have your first baby and the trans woman by the bed next to you, who was with her wife every step of the way is consistently humiliated, dehumanised and denied her true value as a mother, because the best people can manage is to call her a facsimile of a woman, a pseudo-father, and she wishes that just for once, at this most transformative of moments, they would call her a woman, a mother, because that's what she is. But they can’t or they won’t, because they think that denying her the right to be a mother somehow gives them more rights or keeps them safe.

Remember me when your trans neighbour, who is waiting to have children before he starts hormone therapy, gives birth, and feels vulnerable and exposed, because the one person who would truly have been able to understand how he feels (and the best midwife on the ward) has been drummed out by transphobic haters who call her "a man in a dress.". Remember me when the doctors refuse to let your trans cousin see a female doctor, because they won’t record her sex as ‘female.’ Remember me when they laugh at her genitalia, when strangers ask to see what’s under her dress, when they force her to show them, even though her body is screaming no.

Remember me when your elderly mother, who is still reeling from you declaring her “lost to dementia” despite being every bit a feeling, thinking human being, goes into a care home and, despite having lived as a woman all her adult life, is called Sam, and cared for with the men. And even in her addled state of mind, she knows that she is Susan, and you know she is your mother, but you cannot object, and can only sit by while her confusion is compounded with depression, anxiety and grief.

Remember me when your daughter comes home from school crying, the daughter who has spent the last five years training to be the best athlete in her class, her school, her district, she's crying because transphobic mothers won’t allow her to run in the girls' race, but she can't go into the boys' changing rooms for fear of being beaten, and she knows it doesn't matter how hard she trains, she will never be allowed to compete, or even if she does, people would never accept her victories.

Remember me when you go into a toilet late at night, perhaps in a bar, and there's no one else around, and a guy walks in, he has a beard and is wearing jeans and a t shirt, and the way he looks at you seems off, and you feel afraid and unsettled and worried he might hurt you. But you can't challenge him, because the law says he is a woman, because he wasn’t born with a penis.

Remember me when your niece goes for a promotion, for a board position at work that's designated for a woman. She’s put in the hours, she’s worked so hard, she knows she deserves it. And the position goes to Lola, who has spent the last year subjecting her to transphobic bullying her at every opportunity, and making her life so miserable that she’s considered suicide more than once. Lola will never do anything inconvenient like needing time off to have surgery, or to recover from the latest transphobic beating she received when walking home, (though either of them could get breast cancer because it doesn’t just affect people who were born female).

Remember me when you read on the news that crime statistics for trans men and women being raped, murdered, beaten and driven to suicide are on the increase, and that, not only did you do anything to challenge or prevent this, but you spurred it on, in the name of women’s rights. Remember me too, when vulnerable trans women, who look for all the world like you and me, are locked up in male prisons and cannot escape, even though they are imprisoned with the very people who abused them and drove them to the edge.

Remember me when your son comes home from school and says that he's learned at school that you can change sex and that some girls have penises and some boys have vaginas, and he tells you that this was the first time he ever felt like there was a truly place for him in the world. But then his teacher told him it is wrong and immoral to be like this. And you realise that all this time, when you preached transphobia, you were teaching others that your son was wrong, was a misogynist in women’s clothing. And you realise that your son, your wonderful, unique, son, will only be happy when you accept him as your daughter. Remember me when a few months down the line the teacher calls you in and says she's concerned that your son is depressed, that he is being bullied by people who were once his friends, but she doesn't want to have to involve their parents in this, because it’s really just a lifestyle choice and people should be free to tell him what they think of him, after all it’s really just protecting the rights of the girls in the class. But you are afraid – of yourself, your son, your friends, and you don’t know what to do.

In this brave new world that you helped to create, look around for your transphobic friends, the ones who called trans women “six foot men with stubble in a dress” and yet still claimed these ‘men’ were “benefitting from the patriarchy.” Look around and maybe you will finally see that this has cost trans women everything, it has made the world a harder, crueller place for them, and yet they still did this. Despite the odds, the pain, the abuse, despite never being considered to be one thing or another, they still chose to live as women.

And me? I'll be where I've always been. Fighting for all our rights. Fighting to tell you that you do not do this in my name. Fighting to undo the damage.

Watch your own backs, we’ve got ours.

OP posts:
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6
PricklyBall · 13/12/2017 19:51

Tesla, you are conflating two different issues: biological determinism which incorrectly holds that biology determines behaviour,personality,appropriate role in society;and recognising the way biology as material reality has been used to facilitate and then justify oppression.

Do you think it's all some crazily implausible cosmic coincidence that's led to women being the class of people that gets oppressed socially,politically, economically and often violently in every society in history? Or do you think it might have something to do with women being on average smaller, weaker and vulnerable when pregnant and raising small children. Pregnancies which can be forced on women through rape. Child bearing capacity which is often coopted and controlled by men (forced marriages, seclusion, laws on women's sexual behaviour and purity,practices like fgm and foot binding).

To recognise that it is our biology that explains why it is possible to single us out as a class and oppress us, and why we need legal protections specific to our sex. It has nothing to do with reducing us to our vaginas.

Oh, and you mis-spelled cervixes on your bingo sheet.

Afternooncatnap · 13/12/2017 19:51

Oh and no way would I have a trans woman midwife, law or not I would refuse. Don't care if it makes me transphobic.

ArcheryAnnie · 13/12/2017 19:52

LEMtheoriginal I presume that on all your other social media platforms, you rail against the transactivists making death threats, rape threats, doxxing women and calling for no-platforming, yes? You stand up for the right of all women to associate freely without being punched at street corners, yes?

Or is it only here on Mumsnet where you cry "bully"?

ReggaetonLente · 13/12/2017 19:52

This made my brain hurt.

I don't hate transpeople. Everyone deserves to find their place in the world, and be comfortable in it. But not at the expense of others, and especially not at the expense of a vulnerable group who already experience systemic violence at the hands of the more powerful half of society.

Anlaf · 13/12/2017 19:53

Remember me when your niece goes for a promotion, for a board position at work that's designated for a woman

This made me chuckle, bleakly.

You do see that a male person going for a wholly imaginary role on a board which is reserved for women is a bit, well, something we're worried about.

Board roles for women, may I live to see the day.

FWIW I know of 5 (more?) men who have transitioned at senior levels in my industry. Has done their careers no apparent harm. So a bright future for our nieces (not the female ones)

CertainHalfDesertedStreets · 13/12/2017 19:53

I think you will find Lola is trsnsphobic and triggering because of... I dunno... something.

AnnieAnoniMouse · 13/12/2017 19:53

Half witted goady fuckwittery.

Jog
On

Dozer · 13/12/2017 19:55

Editing suggestion:

“when your daughter who has spent the last five years training comes home crying because trans women - allowed to enter because they say they are women - win every race and share the showers, and she knows it doesn't matter how hard she trains, they have biological advantages.

Backingvocals · 13/12/2017 19:57

I’m post menopausal so moot for me (sorry about the exclusionary language dear Helen) but I’d certainly want a midwife whose primary preoccupation was me and my baby. Since all the TRAs I’ve encountered are obsessed with who they are and their nonsense identity ideas I would absolutely say no. Too tedious apart from anything else.

PurpleCrowbar · 13/12/2017 19:57

I'm really confused by the bearded but penis less person in the loo.

If I can tell this person is a biological woman who has a beard (PCOS? Transitioning FTM?) then I'm just going to think ah ok, lady with facial hair, not really unusual & certainly not a problem.

If this person is a trans man & is sufficiently convincing that I think they are a bloke & I find this threatening - ok, I get that. Could happen I suppose.

But aren't TRA saying they should be free to use whichever toilet they prefer? & I should stop making a silly fuss about bearded blokes in the women's toilets? Except now this doesn't apply to bearded blokes who actually ARE women, & it's really bad that I can't object to them. Even though it's mean & transphobid to complain about the ones with willies?

Transcoherence indeed.

ItsAllGoingToBeFine · 13/12/2017 19:58

The other one tasted like coca cola or something

I met her in a club down in North Soho
Where you drink champagne and it tastes just like cherry cola
See-O-L-A cola.
She walked up to me and she asked me to dance.
I asked her name and in a dark brown voice she said, "Lola"
L-O-L-A Lola, lo lo lo lo Lola
Well, I'm not the world's most physical guy,
But when she squeezed me tight she nearly broke my spine
Oh my Lola, lo lo lo lo Lola
Well, I'm not dumb but I can't understand
Why she walk like a woman and talk like a man
Oh my Lola, lo lo lo lo Lola, lo lo lo lo Lola
Well, we drank champagne and danced all night,
Under electric candlelight,
She picked me up and sat me on her knee,
And said, "Little boy won't you come home with me?"
Well, I'm not the world's most passionate guy,
But when I looked in her eyes,
Well I almost fell for my Lola,
Lo lo lo lo Lola, lo lo lo lo Lola
Lola lo lo lo lo Lola lo lo lo lo Lola
I pushed her away. I walked to the door.
I fell to the floor. I got down on my knees.
I looked at her, and she at me.
Well that's the way that I want it to stay.
And I always want it to be that way for my Lola.
Lo lo lo lo Lola.
Girls will be boys, and boys will be girls.
It's a mixed up, muddled up, shook up world,
Except for Lola. Lo lo lo lo Lola.
Well I left home just a week before,
And I've never ever kissed a woman before,
But Lola smiled and took me by the hand,
And said, "Little boy, gonna make you a man."
Well I'm not the world's most masculine man,
But I know what I am and I'm glad I'm a man,
And so is Lola.
Lo lo lo lo Lola. Lo lo lo lo Lola.
Lola lo lo lo lo Lola. Lola lo lo lo lo Lola

Thermostatpolice · 13/12/2017 20:00

Perfectlywretched

Is it time to admit it’s not trans women with genuine body dysphoria who are the problem but the tiny minority’s of pisstakers who claim to be women when they are not?

Many of us have made exactly this point again and again.

Surely common sense can weed them out?

Well yes it probably can. But the law can't. Which is the whole problem with self ID.

Terrylene · 13/12/2017 20:01

Board roles for women, may I live to see the day

There are transwomen in roles women could only dream of...........

Why choose Lola for the name of a transphobic bully who never needs time off work - is there some sort of reverse symbolism I am not getting?

Thermostatpolice · 13/12/2017 20:01

Perfectlywretched I don't believe that it is or will remain a tiny minority of pisstakers either, TBH.

Blanchefleur · 13/12/2017 20:01

Helen, if the world we wished for came to pass it would actually look more like this:

  • the transwoman and her wife would be enjoying their new baby. Nobody would be in the slightest bit bothered that a natal man wished to present in a feminine manner.
  • the pregnant transman would be able to request the midwife of their choice, as would all the other pregnant women.
  • your cousin would be able to see a female doctor, as would all the other women.
  • no HCP would laugh at anyone's genitals (seriously, what are you on about here?)
  • nobody would be sexually assaulted.
  • nobody would be bullied at work or attacked in the street.
  • nobody would be bullied at school as it would be perfectly acceptable to be a feminine boy or a masculine girl. The children would be free to dress as they pleased and have their own interests, because clothes are just clothes and all toys and games are for everyone.
  • the school would teach proper biology though.

I can't comment on the paragraphs about my mother with dementia or my daughter in a race because they don't make sense.

Can't you understand that, for the most part, we actually want the same things?

untoldstories · 13/12/2017 20:02

Any sign of Helen1111 coming back? Xmas Hmm

MyAuntyBadger · 13/12/2017 20:02

So, my mum, neighbour, niece, son, daughter, midwife and couple in the bed next to me etc. are all trans in a world where less than 1% of the population are trans? And how can my mum be a man?

None of that made any sense.

BeyondAssignation · 13/12/2017 20:02

Dunno about Lola anyway - I always preferred Layla
g.co/kgs/j7JF3c

BatShite · 13/12/2017 20:03

Please request this thread moved to AIBU. More traffic there, you will reach more people with your touching words and surely turn the tide. If nothing else, it will make some people smile. We should be spreading love. Like this.

LEMtheoriginal · 13/12/2017 20:04

Archery I am only on Facebook and I have only ever seen this discussed on mnet.

Terrylene · 13/12/2017 20:04

it tastes just like cherry cola

I think you will find that is the sanitised version for the BBC. They could not broadcast "Coca-Cola" in the original coz its advertising. Innit Wink

PencilsInSpace · 13/12/2017 20:06

perfectlywretched

Many of you admit on here you don’t have a problem with trans people. I think deep down you feel compassion and don’t wish harm and hatred on your fellow human beings.

Absolutely.

I think most of you appreciate the majority of trans women want to share women’s right rather than trample all over them.

Women's rights are there to mitigate the harm from male violence and male domination. Not really willing to share my rights as a woman with male people, no matter how feminine they feel, until those male issues are properly dealt with. Sorry.

Is it time to admit it’s not trans women with genuine body dysphoria who are the problem but the tiny minority’s of pisstakers who claim to be women when they are not? Surely common sense can weed them out? And we can start showing compassion and solidarity to trans women?

Have you not actually read a single thread on here? Confused We know it's the pisstakers who are the problem. Unfortunately It's the pisstakers who are getting the laws changed and it's the pisstakers who will abuse those laws once they are changed. The pisstakers are already taking the piss in all sorts of areas, even before the laws have changed.

Wake the fuck up!

TeslasDeathRay · 13/12/2017 20:06

misogynistic wank about trans women being better at being women than actual women, so women are well jell, obviously of trans women, AND misogynistic wank implying that the important thing about any woman is how attractive her legs are.

As opposed to your feminism which dictates that your genitals are the only thing about you that matters? Swings and roundabouts, eh?

I'm not denying women are oppressed. But cisgender women have won far more formal equality than all trans people have. If you want women to have control of their genitals then that also means not denying trans women the right to have control of theirs too.

Sex isn't as clear as that. As many as 1 person in 100 has some form of “DSD,” a difference/disorder of sex development. Yes, there are two distinct binary sexes, male and female, but there are variations in between. Chromosomal sex is a process, not an assignation.
Anatomy, hormones, cells, and chromosomes are actually not usually aligned with one binary classification. That's why it's not as black and white as being either male or female.

Gender is a spectrum. It has little to necessarily do with sex.

Remember me when you go into a toilet late at night, perhaps in a bar, and there's no one else around, and a guy walks in, he has a beard and is wearing jeans and a t shirt, and the way he looks at you seems off, and you feel afraid and unsettled and worried he might hurt you. But you can't challenge him, because the law says he is a woman, because he wasn’t born with a penis

I don't agree with this part, though. Making out that trans men are dangerous is just as bad.

Imagine being so invested in whether someone has a vagina or a penis that it makes you angry about their existence. Who thinks of genitals that much?

Terrylene · 13/12/2017 20:06

Blanchfleur Well said.

whitehandledkitchenknife · 13/12/2017 20:08

I've laughed a bit too much at this.

Got any spare Tena pads Bluebellforest1 ?

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