When is threatening suicide abuse and when is it not?

[RedToothBrush]

Just pondering this.

The majority of articles on the subject relate to domestic abuse. This also means there is a particular group of people who promote this and a particular group of people most at risk of this type of abuse.

There is also a particular type of person who is more likely to inflict this type of abuse and restrict others from knowing this is abuse.

How can you tell when someone says they are suicidal that it is a cry for help or attention seeking? How can you tell when someone is at risk and when someone is being manipulated?

How can you tell when someone is in need of support or is being controlling?

When do you believe and when do you treat with a degree of skepticism for your own protection?

I think this is something that needs a little attention in its own right.

Is there a particular pattern or signs or clue to how to tell the difference?

It’s an interesting question. I guess if they’re asking you to change your behaviour or do something you don’t want to do then it’s abusive. If they’re asking for genuine help (come with me to an appointment or similar) then it’s less likely to be. But”if you do/don’t do x then I’ll kill myself” is definitely abusive and controlling.

I believe most genuinely suicidal people don't go around announcing it!

I had if you do/don't do this I'll kill myself ...

I said I was very sorry, that I'd willingly accompany the said man to any appointment, but that I wasn't going to alter my behaviour for him.

Then I went NC.

People told me I was mean, cruel, a bitch etc. I've been quite sceptical of the way that women are cautioned to deal with abuse ever since. It seems to me that the only time that it's acceptable to put one's self first, to fight back or to potentially cause harm (in defence) to an abusive male is when you are already dead.

Threatening suicide is a way of controlling someone. Almost all abusive men threaten this to keep their women in place.

I think we should look at actual suicide rates, and rates in the past,where were all these kids in the wrong bodies then? They weren't affirmed and yet they lived?

Who does kill themselves? Lots of white men do, does that mean that they need more rights and other groups should be giving them stuff they ask for?

The hyperbole about suicide is creating a problem that previously did not exist, it is a social contagion.

Agree with Hermione - if it's being said in order to get someone else to do something then it's abusive. Suicide is about the person who is talking about doing it, it's not a means of getting things or behaviour off others

Asking for help and support and expressing feeling suicide is not.
Using suicide threats to manipulate someone into doing what you want, keeping them in check through fear and guilt is abusive.

The second a person says ' If you do / don't do xyz I will kill myself' it is abuse.
Is a person shares with you that life seems so worthless and they would like to die / take their life that is clearly not abusive. However, if that same person insists on sharing these feelings over and over again but refuses to seek professional help I think this becomes abusive towards the non suicidal person

The hyperbole about suicide is creating a problem that previously did not exist, it is a social contagion.

This is my thought and concern.

I'm considering confronting my Mum at some point in the future over the trans stuff but if I do, I am really going to have to know my shit on this. (I do wonder if I can challenge her at all over the subject or whether doing so would do more harm than good for other reasons. This strikes me as one of the bigger issues through. I feel very held hostage over it all generally).

I'm just looking through the Samaritans advice on suicide:

www.samaritans.org/media-centre/media-guidelines-reporting-suicide/advice-journalists-suicide-reporting-dos-and-donts

There is so much irresponsible reporting going on in relation to several different political agendas ATM (this isn't just the more obvious trans one but also about Islamic extremism).

Perhaps there should be a push on this as a general thing because of the social contagion it's carrying.

If its used in an inappropriate way copy and paste the Samaritans link?

How do you ensure at the same time that people who do need help, are encouraged to get support?

I'm just pondering, because I do think there are a few issues here about the politicalisation of suicide that need to be addressed.

I think as a rule, women are much more vulnerable to this, because of the caring role they are supposed to take on in society.

I don't know. Just trying to collect a few thoughts on this.

I agree that the difference is when the person says they will commit suicide if you don't/do do something, as Hermione said, rather than someone who is sharing with you that they don't see any reason to live. But I would say that difference can be quite subtle in practice to the person being manipulated. I was in an abusive relationship in my late teens and my pathologically jealous and controlling boyfriend agreed to meet me in the local pub (this was before we were living together) He was a bit late arriving and as soon as he got there he saw me talking to another man in passing and ran outside.

I followed him and he threatened to commit suicide there and then. I didn't care about him, I disrespected him so what did he have to live for? I clearly didn't love him so he wanted to kill himself. I was worried that he would do it and I had to promise not to ever speak to that man (who was a friend) again before he would stop threatening to kill himself. This was quite early in our relationship and not a one off and a combination of suicide threats, emotional abuse and violence meant that I eventually stopped going out altogether because he would never allow me to leave the house without him as he was so paranoid that I would talk to other men.

The point is that he never actually said "I will kill myself if you do or don't do x" he left that unsaid. He said he would kill himself because he had nothing to live for if I didn't love him (do everything he wanted and let myself be controlled by him in everything). It seems easy now to see that it was abusive but I'm not sure even he realised that he was manipulating me. He probably thought he was just expressing how bad he felt at the time.

They have set out their stall and people are buying it. Even ten minutes os critical though brings the whole thing crashing down. I have to tread very carefully around my daughter at the moment as she is under pressure to trans at school. I raised her without using stereotypical girl stuff and in today's world she is prime material for transing.

We talk and she gets cross but she cannot marry in her head why I am the leftyist lefty who has actively fraught against homophobia and am suddenly a bigot.

The world is bloody scary but d'ya know it always has been for women standing up for women, throughout history.

I didn't say it to be controlling I wanted to say goodbye before I went
Obvs not succeful but massive massive trouble

I work with someone who threatens suicide every time she believes she is being criticised. She is very clearly unwell yet won't take any time off because she says that if others change their behaviour towards her (ie managers stop confronting her about bullying and harassing other colleagues, and drop disciplinary procedures) she will be well again.

Nobody will listen to me when I say that i honestly believe she is manipulative and controlling, they cut her an enormous amount of slack and excuse some truly horrific behaviour because nobody wants to be the person who sends her over the edge. Every conversation ends with her saying she is going to jump in front of a train or throw herself off a building. It is awful to witness and draining to deal with.

I have to tread very carefully around my daughter at the moment as she is under pressure to trans at school. I raised her without using stereotypical girl stuff and in today's world she is prime material for transing

Who is pressuring her?

It's the ultimate backlash for daring not to buy the patriarchal bullshit of gender stereotypes, isn't it?

I sadly have experience of suicide threats used to control me. My late DFiance suffered from poor mental health at times. He would self medicate with benzos bought (then legally) on the net. Funnily enough the suicide threats (several a year) only occurred after he'd been drinking alcohol.
Unfortunately his last threat turned out to be real as whilst completely "off his head" on a combo of drink and drugs he announced he was going to jump over the balcony. He then did just that whilst I watched in disbelief. We think that he didnt realise how far up we were as we had only just (2hrs previously) arrived at our holiday house in the dark and there were excavations below us.
The psychiatrist I saw for treatment for PTSD told me that what he did was the epitome of abuse.
He left a devastated 8 yr old son, a stepdaughter and me.
It is only now that I am able to see that I was controlled and gaslighted for 10 years.
I think that suicide threats should be taken in context. Most people who are genuinely suicidal do not use it as a stick to beat others. But suicide threats are definitely part of a tool kit for the emotionally abusive person.
I also wonder how many successful suicides were never meant to work in the way they did. Only in the wider context of their previous behaviour will there be clues.
Sorry for the essay. I have too much experience of this sadly.

because nobody wants to be the person who sends her over the edge.

No, of course not. That's why it is such an effective way of manipulating and controlling people.

Yet it's other kids, constantly. The girly girls ask her if she is trans, the boys ask her if she is trans. She fancies girls and lesbian is so fucking uncool but trans is accompanied by a marching band.

She also has lots of male role models because there are so few females she sees doing cool stuff. Almost every movie has all the men and boys doing the cool stuff that she wants to do.

We are really close but have to stay away form this stuff as she cannot see the harm in it.

There are several girls identifying as boys and they all look like her, like what she likes etc so kids just assume.

The borders around the sexist stereotypes are being policed by kids!

On a plus note she had a huge row with a boy in her class as he said that boys who play with barbies must be trans. She said boy's who play with barbies are just boys who like barbies. I was hopeful at that.

Hoof

Hoof

Hoof .

I believe most genuinely suicidal people don't go around announcing it!

Not necessarily.

Most people who are genuinely suicidal do not use it as a stick to beat others. But suicide threats are definitely part of a tool kit for the emotionally abusive person.
I also wonder how many successful suicides were never meant to work in the way they did. Only in the wider context of their previous behaviour will there be clues.

Absolutely.

Dame - that's just so fucking scary. Fingers crossed that she continues to see sense. I'm just so sad that more adults can't.

Thanks for the

bish absolutely. I did say most. And annoucing it in the way abusers do is usually very different to the way genuinely suicidal people talk about it