When is threatening suicide abuse and when is it not?

[RedToothBrush]

Just pondering this.

The majority of articles on the subject relate to domestic abuse. This also means there is a particular group of people who promote this and a particular group of people most at risk of this type of abuse.

There is also a particular type of person who is more likely to inflict this type of abuse and restrict others from knowing this is abuse.

How can you tell when someone says they are suicidal that it is a cry for help or attention seeking? How can you tell when someone is at risk and when someone is being manipulated?

How can you tell when someone is in need of support or is being controlling?

When do you believe and when do you treat with a degree of skepticism for your own protection?

I think this is something that needs a little attention in its own right.

Is there a particular pattern or signs or clue to how to tell the difference?

Prob have to NC again...

I'm currently in the phase of escalating self-harm to having visible scars. It's an outcry again decades of stress, but I fear where it'll end up. I've not been controlling or manipulate with it, my little secret, but again it's fearful. Under some therapy for other childhood issues but yet to disclose mother and this. Will see in the NY I guess.

Marrow

Damn, Hoof too.

ThisisaNC. Interestingly, I've been 'accused' by psychiatrists in the past that my suicide attempts were 'self-harm' incidents. I was in my first session of specialist therapy this week and I referred to some of the incidents similarly and the therapist said 'here, we don't refer to suicide attempts as self-harm'.
So I guess there are different schools of thought out there in the professional world too.

For clarity, I said 'Oh, I was probably just self-harming when I did so and so' i.e. attempting suicide in whatever unsuccessful manner'.

It was an empowering statement that she made to me actually.
It validated my feelings a lot.
ThisisaNC. I hope you find a bit of peace soon.

I think the one thing to take note of, unless they are just threatening shit and not doing anything at all (in which case they are in need of a different type of help) is that whether it be self-harm or a suicide attempt, that is a tonne of pain that person is feeling. Just feeling suicidal can be excruciatingly painful emotionally.

Thanks Who ,

'I believe most genuinely suicidal people don't go around announcing it!'

Well, actually...
The fact is that most people who commit suicide have at some point said that they are thinking about it, even if disguised as a joke.
It is important not to spread the myth that if you are suicidal you don't talk about it because it encourages people to ignore actual cries for help.
Talking about it doesn't mean you ARE serious but it sure as hell doesn't mean you're not.

Some sad posts on this thread
Even though threatening suicide can be manipulative, that doesn't mean the person doing it isn't in an amount of mental distress. It isn't something a mentally healthy person would do.
Equally though it's not anyone other than the suicidal persons issue to sort out.
I had a horrific ex who threatened suicide and took an overdose when I tried to split up with him, somehow I got cast as the person who had caused his illness. I wish I'd had the strength to stay split up with him but I went back because of the overdose. Very bad decision.
He was very unhappy but also very manipulative.

We've had just this experience a couple days ago! Have t be careful not to out myself here but we had a call threatening suicide rushed to their aid and then were basically verbally abused by the caller saying they had wanted to be left alone! Well don't call people and tell them your going to kill yourself then! Be on your own quietly like you claim you wanted!

Not read the full thread...

In health care there is a criteria for attempting to determine between actual failed suicide attempts and deliberate self harm (which is obviously not always about manipulating and controlling others, but certainly includes this type of behaviour). Looks at factors including age, gender, recent life events (bereavement, divorce etc), when did they tell anyone about the incident (before, immediately after, soon after, much later, not at all/discovered by chance), proximity to others during incident (same room, same house, end of phone, remote location), and a whole load of other factors.

One of my best friends ended up trapped by an ex girlfriend , feeling responsible as she made repeated dsh attempts (overdoses) and descended into alcohol addiction, he felt he couldn't even kick her out of his house as she would then die. It was terribly controlling of his life and there was no way he could move on with any new relationships. It took me and several of his family members being very frankly honest, and explain that the way she was going (and treating her body) she would never live to see thirty, if he kept looking after her she might have made it close to thirty, without his support it would be closer to 25, but he couldn't move on with her still in his house/life. He eventually kicked her out (to a flat not on the street) and he soon met someone who he now has a 5 year old kid with. She died around a year after he kicked her out. Coroner ruled it was accidental death by overdose of paracetamol rather than suicide, as there was nothing to distinguish it apart from her multiple previous dsh overdoses, just this one pushed her liver too far and it failed.

It is a real tough one when others feel responsible for keeping someone who is so mentally unstable, dependent and manipulative alive.

my first husband used to threaten suicide, sporadically throughout our marriage, but mostly to try to rein me back in when we were divorcing. He liked to just leave the possibility hanging over me - actually, my experience uncannily echoes ereshkigal's above. He never said "If you do x, or don't do y, I will kill myself" - it was always "I am so unhappy, you don't love me, I've got nothing to live for, I might as well be dead" - but it wasn't the way that someone depressed would say it, it was always meant for me. After we separated, it got a lot more blatant - he'd ring me and say "I'm sitting in the car on the level crossing, I've got the dog with me and there's a train coming. What do you want to do?"

Fucker. And I complied. Nowadays, I'd ring 999 and get the professionals to deal with it. Worst of it was, he knew fine well that a previous boyfriend of mine had killed himself (due to depression and other mental health issues) and that I was tormented with guilt, as those left behind by suicide always are - and he still felt OK about pushing those buttons. That's what made it abusive.

I don't doubt that he was expressing his extreme distress in the only way he knew how to following his own emotionally abusive upbringing, but there was no way I was signing up for a lifetime being his whipping boy.

And he's still very much alive.

The boyfriend who did commit suicide had previously talked about it, and had said that if his mental health deteriorated again, he thought that he would probably kill himself- but it wasn't a threat. Just a sort of sad resignation, because he couldn't face the blackness of depression again. I only feel sadness about it, never anger.

marrow and hoof, huge hugs to you.

It is a real tough one when others feel responsible for keeping someone who is so mentally unstable, dependent and manipulative alive.

That's it.

Wow Sophocles

It's not meant to be a trans thread. I deliberately didn't mention it in the OP.

Yes it might apply to the trans debate in some contexts but not necessarily it alone.

I think it's going to be a growing problem, and is already affecting lives as suicide isn't handled as well as it should be because it's being glorified or otherwise promoted. It is becoming politicised.

I do think the misuse of a threat is being disproportionately used against women and it almost has greater impact on women. It is most definitely something women do too - not just against partners but also other family members. I think my feeling was that women seem to take such threats more seriously too, perhaps because it's their 'role'.

But I also really don't want to minimise very real issues too. I don't share the opinion of others on this thread who believe that saying you are suicidal is abusive in all situations.

The trouble is I've had relationships where it has held me hostage in the past, and I think this makes me a lot more cynical than I was.

That's why I wanted to make it a wider ponder.

It's thought provoking isn't it? My abusive step father threatened to kill us all if my mother left him, when I disclosed sexual abuse and she really left him, he threatened and attempted suicide on multiple occasions to try to control her, he eventually did commit suicide soon after he learned he would be investigated for said abuse. It wasn't a cry for help but it most definitely was the last ultimate act of control.

Just because someone chooses to end their life does not always mean they are mentally unwell. I think this is such a common fallacy

Just because someone chooses to end their life does not always mean they are mentally unwell. I think this is such a common fallacy
Why so? I can't envisage a situation (with possible exception of terminal/life-changing illness) where suicide would be considered by someone mentally healthy.

QuentinSummers Bereavement, children being bullied, a situation where a person decides they do not wish to be alive anymore
These people do not have to be mentally unwell. It can be a conscious decision or an act of desperation

Maybe we have different definitions of mental health.
I don't think suicide is a rational decision, I think it's a sign of someone in huge mental distress.

What The Countess said. Lots of people who talk about ending it go on to attempt it or to do it.

Others are like my dad who threatened it on and off for years to my mum. He's 86 now and doesn't so much as have a DNACPR in place. He definitely felt very bad, I know that, perhaps due to having behaved terribly and also to be fair having been a victim of criminals who latched gratefully onto his combination of vanity and low self esteem.

The desire to die unless facing terrible suffering and/or a painful undignified death is always a sign of being mentally unwell.

The most fundamental desire is to live.

I say this as someone who has major depressive disorder, a history of suicidal acts and a number of other very serious health problems.

It is also a myth that ‘genuinely’ suicidal people do not say anything about suicide.

Ok. I guess I wasnt clear enough in my post. I dont believe the myth that all genuine suicide keep silent. I myself told people when I was feeling suicidal. The difference is I spoke to a health professional ,not my DP to tell him that if he didnt do x and y I would kill myself.
So what I am trying to say there is a world of difference between feeling suicidal and telling someone and telling someone you are suicidal just to get your own way.
When I used to SH it was secret, hidden from people. I didn't say "look what you made me do " and display my poor damaged skin. That would have been manipulative.
Context is everything. Of course some genuinely suicidal person may also act in a manipulative and controlling way. In which case they need imediate professional help. But if it happens again and again then the poor bloody person who is "tasked with" maintaining someone's existence needs to get the hell away from a very unhealthy relationship. No one should ever, ever, ever be burdened with the reposnsibility of keeping an adult safe. I have done it too many times in my life and it defintely had a negative impact on me.
So the short reply is genuinely suicidal or not, talking about it or not, how we behave with that person will depend on our judgement.and then call 999. Every time.
I once had police helicoptors out looking for late DP as he sent me photos of him in a field with a 100 or so pills and a fifth of vodka. After he was discovered by the police, it was found that he hadnt in fact taken the pills he had claimed to me he had. Now, undoubtably he had severe mh issues to do that but he wasn't genuinely suicidal. It was about controlling me and taking the power away from me. I have many more anecdotes like that, with other people too. Obviously I am too open hearted for my own good.
Sorry, that wasn't the short version at all. My point is look at the context, look at the power dynamics, look at previous mh issues and past behaviour.
I hope that I have made myself clear this time.
Thanks for the guys

Thanks for starting this thread. X

It's a common trick of abusive people - one way of seeing it for what it is might be: have they a history of threatening to do it or making pathetic attempts at it (swallowing half a bottle of multi-vitamins or something)? Is it always because you have refused to indulge them or let them have their own way? (It's very, very often a threat that comes out when they have physically and mentally battered you for quite some time but you are not being Selfish and Unreasonable for refusing to put up with them any longer.)
If you've got (or have recently dumped) one of those, bear in mind that they are pretty unlikely to go and do it. Unfortunately. They are usually people the world would be better off without.

I did know a woman once who was prone to 'attempts'. She had some MH issues, too, but there was a lot of posturing and drama llama behaviour. Finally, as could probably have been predicted, she chanced her luck once too often. Posted her 'farewell cruel world' note on a chat forum (this was a few years before Facebook was much of a thing), took some pills and waited for the paramedics her lovely 'community would surely summon to kick the door in. Unfortunately, the only person in her online chat group who actually knew her address wasn't online that day...

I wouldn't describe her as having been an abusive person, more of an attention seeker, but it was such a stupid thing to do, such a waste of a life.

Remember that the type of abusive person who is a narcissist or has other personality disorders does not fear consequences in the same way, so yes, sometimes they take it too far and succeed.