"There are only two genders, change my mind".

[Childrenofthestones]

Not my words but Steven Crowder's (like him or loathe him). in this interesting experiment on a campus.

Pixie, I agree, this blatant appropriation of medical conditions which cause people a range of difficulties which they have to negotiate out there in the real world infuriates me. (Friends of mine have a son with Kleinfelters and global developmental delay - they worry about whether he's ever going to be able to talk, and what sort of level of independent living he'll be able to achieve as an adult, and what support he'll have in adulthood, in the light of Tory cuts, once they're no longer around to look after him. Conceptualising him - erroneously - as some sort of pink sparkly unicorn third sex doesn't help them with any of these very pressing real-world concerns. Nor does pretending that he doesn't have a disorder in some sort of misguided form of language policing.)

Well I never intended to cause any upset to anyone with or connected to intersex conditions. I do however think that if a thread is run to discuss and challenge if gender, and subsequently through evolution of the discussion, sex are binary then it is an inevitable that the discussion will have some focus on intersex conditions. I personally would have liked to explore more about binary systems in nature, and challenged other aspects of the definition of sex as I don't believe that chromosomes, reproductive potential or genitals are the definitive determinant for sex. Indeed all three have been used to define sex here by various contributors each in their own right but in doing so left out some people.

It is unfortunate that intersex often gets dragged into trans debates but I suspect trans people do not do so lightly, I suspect it is mainly the case that chromosomes are used as ammunition against their experience and intersex are the only tools they have to show the waters are not as chrystal clear as is claimed by some.

There was an original thread premise and another one that emerged later on with the discussion moving from gender to sex. I attempted to challenge the binary concept in line with the thread discussion point. I feel that much like in the OP video the participants were not actually open to exploring any challenge but rather just attack and dismiss it. I doubt however in this little backwater of the internet that we were ever going to stumble upon a world changing revelation on sex and gender, but the debate as far as i am concerned is shut down and it is my intention not to post further on the thread subject.

If i caused any offence I truly apologise.

Everyone: Humans are a bipedal race.

Debbie: No because there are people born with just one or even no legs.

Oh and welcome to MN, Debbie.

Debbie6666 You keep suggesting you've upset or offended people, or that we'll be relieved to see you leave. Thats not the case, so you can relax. Its just a discussion.

I doubt however in this little backwater of the internet that we were ever going to stumble upon a world changing revelation on sex

We are all agreed on that

I’ve a reasonable understanding of the biology of sex, but this thread has been fascinating.

Nice flounce. I give it a 3. I hope you can stick it.

chromosomes are used as ammunition against (trans people's) experience

Look, I'm really sorry to bang on. But this is a category error

There are many domains in which people's lived experience is a valid and incontrovertible signifier of the truth. If you're angry, and you say so, then it's nobody's business to tell you you're not: you are the only arbiter of the truth of that statement. Similarly, only you can say whether you do or don't 'feel like a woman'.

But there are other domains in which the 'truth' (or the best current approximation of it) is observable and replicable regardless of anyone's unique subjectivity. If we didn't believe in objective and replicable material reality, we'd have no science, no medicine, no agriculture and no industry.

To deny that such domains exist is solipsism. And if such domains do exist, then reproductive sex is demonstrably one of them.

as I don't believe that chromosomes, reproductive potential or genitals are the definitive determinant for sex.

May I suggest a very very basic biology textbook then as it has been known for, ooh 60 odd years, that chromosomes are pretty much THE definitive determinant for sex.

You can of course believe what you want, hell believe in God if that floats your boat, but proven scientific reality is fact regardless of your personal beliefs.

@Debbie6666 have a little google of necessary and sufficient conditions. For someone to be a woman it is sufficient for them to have ovaries, produce/possess eggs, have a vagina/vulva/womb. Some intersex people have one or more of those. Happy to share womanhood with people who meet sufficient conditions. I do not include what a person 'feels like' as a sufficient condition to meet a biological condition.

Necessary conditions are those that you have to have to be part of the group. Possession of a Y chromosome is a necessary condition to be a man.

We don't all have to be Plato or Darwin. We do need to stop pretending that feelings define biology.

I don't believe that chromosomes, reproductive potential or genitals are the definitive determinant for sex

This is an argument for the known determinants of sex to be abandoned for some other things that suit an agenda. It is a faith-based approach. It is nothing to do with science and the pretence that it is is wearisome.

I have been following the gender discussions here recently and given it much thought. My personal understanding is that there are statistically two biological sexes and no gender. I am biologically female. However I don't agree with the construct of gender as I like what Iike, and will do what I do without being told what is expected of me as a woman. I like caring, being homely, cooking, science, maths, art, rewiring, decorating, mowing the lawn, reading science fiction. I don't like clothes shopping, gossiping, pink, fluffy and sparkly things, football, flash cars, high heels, makeup... I could go on. I don't understand that if a person with a penis feels right wearing makeup, heels and dresses is a woman. They are a man who has been brain washed into thinking that liking 'gender contruct female things' makes them a woman. I don't care what men or women like to wear or what activities and interests they have. I am most happy wearing trousers, tee, no makeup, flat shoes and haven't thought that I must therefore be a man. I was a Tomboy as a girl, and there was no suggestion that there was anything unusual about that. I was allowed to be myself. These are just my thoughts. I'm aware we all have different ideas.

They are a man who has been brain washed into thinking that liking 'gender contruct female things' makes them a woman.

It looks like it for many. Or that it's more socially accepted for men to say they are a woman if they prefer 'gender contruct female things' than a man who likes those things.
It's certainly a consequence of increased gender stereotypes.

I doubt however in this little backwater of the internet that we were ever going to stumble upon a world changing revelation on sex and gender,

Yeah I’m not sure 12 million unique users per month can be considered a backwater.

It is unfortunate that intersex often gets dragged into trans debates but I suspect trans people do not do so lightly...

Trans people know full well that intersex people are fed up with this.

A well known trans pressure group approached a British intersex society to do a collaboration on the basis that the surgery trans people have and the surgery intersex people have are similar. And a collaboration would promote the causes of both.

The society thought about it and subsequently disagreed. So the trans group contacted horizon TV to make a programme about it and put more pressure on the intersex society to sign up.

Long story short, the intersex society had post a public letter on the Internet, detailing the intimidating pressure they were subjected to in terms of a stream of email exchanges and letters, etc.

Even the programme makers thought the trans group had an agenda that they weren’t comfortable with.

They specifically said they do not wish trans people to use them to promote their own cause. Because it is entirely different.

Given the intersex is relentlessly brought up in almost every conversation to do with transgender, yes, they are absolutely raising it lightly. And erroneously. And with an arrogant, manipulative and blatant disregard to intersex people everywhere.

I suspect it is mainly the case that chromosomes are used as ammunition against their experience and intersex are the only tools they have to show the waters are not as chrystal clear as is claimed by some.

So completely illogical. Using the determinants of a disorder to imply sex is determined by your brain, in a person where it is quite clearly determined by their actual chromosomes!

And with an arrogant, manipulative and blatant disregard to intersex people everywhere.

Yes it is so fucking selfish and cruel.

Just because there are some white male heteros at the top of the privilege tree romanticising oppression and appropriating struggles, poor intersex people, women and actual transsexuals are fair game to be openly chewed up and spat out by them as they get their kicks -while the rest of the world clears the path for them and cheers them as they go.

@CassiniDivision, very similar to my thought processes. I find the whole thing utterly baffling and I am at a loss as to how we got to the current situation.

I am an academic developmental biologist. I have spent a lots of hours looking at chromosomes (and eggs and sperm) down microscopes.

Intersex people don’t have a mysterious third chromosome. They have unusual combinations (multiples or absences) of the standard two sex chromosomes. I’ve seen it with my own eyes

the science backs up that there are more than two sex chromosome types, not that there are only two
If I were devil’s advocate and a glass of wine down, I could argue that there are 15bn different sex chromosomes in the world...

Maid interesting. Could you expand on this a bit please? I'm not sure whether you are saying that binary sex doesn't exist.

If I were devil’s advocate and a glass of wine down, I could argue that there are 15bn different sex chromosomes in the world...

I could argue that there are 15bn different sex chromosomes in the world
To clarify this:
No X chromosome will be exactly the same as any other. Ys will be different too. This is because we all have slightly differing sequences of DNA in any chromosome. So if there are (approx.) 7.5bn people in the world, most with two sex chromosomes, neither of which is exactly the same sequence as anyone else’s, that makes 15bn different sexy chromosomes.

And furthermore, that’s going to be an underestimate, because we are not only born with genetic variation but acquire it over our lifetimes. So my two Xs aren’t even likely to be the same sequence in different cells of my own body. I may contain any number of different X chromosomes.

Cross post! I’m being very tongue in cheek in a Biology Sense Of Humour way. This type of humour is not often funny to others...

Sex is binary.

And while I get what Debbie is trying to describe (she’s looking for the word ‘tautology’, I think?), I think s/he is completely wrong about our historical model of ‘sex’ being outdated.

If all knowledge, both scientific and social, were wiped from our brains and we had to recreate anew, we would arrive at exactly the same model if sex today i.e. a binary model involving two different chromosomes that confer specific reproductive capacities on the bearer and are require to produce new humans. They probably wouldn’t be called X and Y chromosomes though. Well, X might be, because the symbol was used in the mathematical sense to indicate ‘unknown’ (and Y followed).

In the absence of all knowledge, would we arrive at our current concepts of ‘gender’? Unlikely.

15bn different sexy chromosomes.

It’s good that you are that into your subject

My phone autocorrects to ‘sez’ then ‘sexy’

I'm not 100% sure there are 15 bn sexy chromosomes. Afaik the Y doesn't recombine, so there would have to be at least one mutation per generation.

Then, if the X recombines in every meiosis (you can clarify this, Maid), each woman will have a range of different Xs in storage, which will make the number much higher than 15 bn
And that's only in humans.

Chromosomes ARE sexy, though.

(My autocorrect changes sexy to sex, go figure)