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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Feminism: chat

Original poster

"There are only two genders, change my mind".

218 replies

Childrenofthestones · 07/12/2017 11:07

Not my words but Steven Crowder's (like him or loathe him). in this interesting experiment on a campus.

OP posts:
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Debbie6666 · 08/12/2017 12:21

GuardianLions Chromosomes are physical reality i agree, but they are not binary, they are not one of two possible values. They are a combination of many different arrangements, this it not how binary works. If there were only two possible combinations xx and xy they your argument would have merit, but we know that is not the biological reality, there are many other combinations.

The Binary system concept itself is the social construct and as such anything we put into it like sex for instance must also be socially constructed in its binary understanding. That doesn't change the fact that underneath the binary model is the ever variant natural world which exists and which knows no binary.

catgirl1976 · 08/12/2017 12:28

I think

Sex = observable, objective, unchangeable

Gender = unobservable, subjective, changeable

Sums it up for me. And I don't think we should base laws on the unobservable, the subjective or the changeable.

Debbie6666 · 08/12/2017 12:31

irretating: Is it really helpful to tell that 16 yr old that they are disordered though. Something which by its very definition puts that person on the back foot and feeling wrong. A societal system that inherently tells people who don't fit the reproductive "ideal" that they are disordered and need fixing is inherently more cruel than one that accepts them and has a place for them but can also use its medical understanding to do whatever the individual needs to meet their own reproductive goals whilst not marking them out as disordered.

Debbie6666 · 08/12/2017 12:35

catgirl1976

Of course there is a line of thinking that neither of them are changeable and that transgender people do not change sex or gender but rather always were both all along, they just suppressed and played along with another gender role to fit in.

Of course that then brings in the female penis and male vagina and definitions of sex that people are not comfortable with. But as we can see here, no one has yet completely defined sex without causing unintended divisions

catgirl1976 · 08/12/2017 12:36

I think pretty much everyone here has been able to define sex.

DJBaggySmalls · 08/12/2017 12:38

We have, you just wont accept it. The standard definitions dont involve any convoluted double think either.

Why dont you devise better ones that accommodate the self contradictory concept of a male vagina and female penis first before berating everyone else?

nauticant · 08/12/2017 12:46

The dishonesty in Debbie6666's approach is to argue that the current definitions of sex are no longer relevant because of extremely rare incidences of individuals where sex is difficult to determine and then to conflate this with "female penis" which we all know will be possessed by a gaslighting XY man with no chromosomal abnormality and no intersex condition whatsoever.

Yet again, it comes down to using people with an intersex condition as objects to support something wholly unrelated and scientifically nuts. Good luck to those who will continue to argue.

LangCleg · 08/12/2017 12:50

Debbie6666

Good lord, Debbie. Disorder doesn't mean a moral judgement. It just means "not working as expected". I have a disorder of the immune system. I go to the doctor to get it treated. I don't take offence because the doctor says "something is wrong with your immune system". And it doesn't mean that there is a glitter rainbow of immune systems which are all perfectly valid.

It's not about feelings: it's about objective, material reality. Human beings are a sexually dimorphic species. It's how they reproduce. There are two sexes and a small number of development disorders. That's it. Fin.

GuardianLions · 08/12/2017 12:51

GuardianLions Chromosomes are physical reality i agree, but they are not binary, they are not one of two possible values. They are a combination of many different arrangements, this it not how binary works. If there were only two possible combinations xx and xy they your argument would have merit, but we know that is not the biological reality, there are many other combinations.

Eh? Excuse me!?!

I said that chromosomes were observable, I did not say binary, no one has denied that chromosomal abnormalities occur (in a small percentage of the population) - where did you pull that out?

I do assert (not in that particular post mind) that there are two observable reproductive sexes in humans. And that the sperm which fertilise the egg are produced by males and the egg that is fertilised by the sperm is within the female. There is not a third sex required, observable or possible in human reproduction.

MarrowWang · 08/12/2017 12:53

Given intersex people prefer to be called intersex, than to be associated with trans, this is a pretty silly argument. Transactivists have behaved in a really shoddy way towards intersex support groups. And such groups have put out public statements distancing themselves from 'transgender' as the very people it affects say that intersex and trans are nothing alike.

It kind of annoys me to see the 'but intersex' argument being brought up in relation to trans stuff tbh.

And no biological sex is not a social construct.

GuardianLions · 08/12/2017 12:57

then your argument would have merit

by the way, that turn of phrase is a signpost of a fledgling misogynist keyboard warrior... next you'll bring up the 'I know a woman who shouted at a man for holding the door open' myth...

I am looking forward to your explanation of male vaginas and female penises... Hmm

GuardianLions · 08/12/2017 13:01

the very people it affects say that intersex and trans are nothing alike
exactly. People with intersex conditions have a whole separate battle.

irretating · 08/12/2017 13:12

irretating: Is it really helpful to tell that 16 yr old that they are disordered though.

Disorder is a medical term, not a personal assessment of individuals.

Would you be doing this pearl-clutching if we were talking about heart rhythm disorders?

Debbie6666 · 08/12/2017 13:33

lol triggered

So the answer to the thread premise is "of course" because we simply won't entertain any challenge our preconceived and established ideas ideas and will berate and shut down the debate of anyone who does and then complain about debates being shut down!

nauticant · 08/12/2017 13:35

And your response is "I'm a victim". Not "my arguments are unconvincing".

Debbie6666 · 08/12/2017 13:42

There is no way to convince closed mind of a view that is doesn't already hold. There has only been one person who has even attempted to understand the arguments put forward.

I'm still waiting for examples of true binary systems in nature, not ones that are only binary because we ignore the facets that mean they are not by applying the threshold and equalisation rules necessary to make binary work.

Binary is a number system, nature does not use numbers, they are too clumsy and ill defined and binary is the clumsiest off the lot.

Nuffaluff · 08/12/2017 13:53

binary
ˈbʌɪnəri/Submit
adjective
1.
relating to, composed of, or involving two things.
2.
relating to, using, or denoting a system of numerical notation that has 2 rather than 10 as a base.

Sex is binary in terms of the first definition. The second meaning of the word applies to numbers.
Perhaps that's where the confusion is arising.

GuardianLions · 08/12/2017 13:56

debbie you seem to be getting confused between coding and biology. We aren't 'transhuman' yet....

Why not get out - breathe fresh air, feel the sun on your skin. Misusing your brain is doing you and no one else any good.

Nuffaluff · 08/12/2017 14:02

Coding! That's it.
It's the connection with a high salary in IT.

Debbie6666 · 08/12/2017 14:02

The first definition fails as humans are not all identical and its possible/likely that intersex and transgender people fall between the established binary model which by definition means its not binary anymore, as there are now more than two things.

The only way to keep it binary is to apply the preconceived model of binary to it, which is bad science.

MentholBreeze · 08/12/2017 14:03

Binary is a number system, nature does not use numbers, they are too clumsy and ill defined and binary is the clumsiest off the lot

It's binary because there are 2 sexes required to make a new human. Not because every human exactly fits into one of those two boxes (although the vast, vast majority do, and those who don't are usually sterile due to their chromosomal disorder - note, still valid, real, humans - just not part of the reproductive binary)

The existence of people who are XXY (or any other makeup) doesn't negate that.

Also, your chromosomes don't change. If you're born XY, ie male, you can never become XX, ie female.

If you are born XXY (I believe defined as an intersex male) you can never become XX or XY.

none of these are value judgements, they're descriptions of reality.

Nuffaluff · 08/12/2017 14:10

Bad science?
That to make a baby you need sperm from a man and an egg from a woman? That is why sex is binary. It's really very simple.
If your parents had believed sex is merely a social construct then you wouldn't exist.
No.
Bad science is 'female brain in a male body'.

nauticant · 08/12/2017 14:14

I'm going to cherry pick concepts from science without really understanding them, misapply them in an out of context way, and then claim that the unconvinced people don't have my superior knowledge.

MentholBreeze · 08/12/2017 14:16

If your parents had believed sex is merely a social construct then you wouldn't exist

If only contraception could actually work that way Grin

Debbie66 - if a male and a male have lots and lots of sex, there will never be a baby. If a female and a female have lots and lots of sex, there will never be a baby. If a female and a male have lots and lots of sex, chances are there's going to be a baby, and no amount of stamping your feet and saying sex is socially constructed is going to change that.

Since these two types of people very, very clearly exist, we went and looked at what the differences might be. Turns out, there's some very clear ones that even amateurs can notice, and also some very small ones that only become clear to scientists.

When making these discoveries, we also found some people that don't easily fit into either the male, or the female category. Their existence doesn't negate that the male and female categories both exist, and you need one of each to make a new human.

BlindYeo · 08/12/2017 14:16

The extent of people's capacity to willfully ignore the truth in pursuit of an ideology never ceases to amaze me. How can it be that we are having to expend energy explaining that there are two human sexes?

(Well obviously I know the answer is because there's mileage in such deliberate obtuseness if you want to take something away from women and have it for yourself).