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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

If you regularly think "not ANOTHER trans thread"

64 replies

Jenala · 27/11/2017 08:28

Please give this excellent blog post a read.

I'm still getting my head around the issue and this post really sets out the concerns really clearly.

Apologies if it has already been posted and I've missed it. Could potentially put the post in this thread if needed?

OP posts:
60sname · 27/11/2017 08:31

The problem for me isn't just the sheer number of trans threads, it is the insistence that if you don't agree with the FWR orthodoxy on here you are either a) uninformed b) wrong or c) an MRA

AlternativeTentacle · 27/11/2017 08:36

I want my nieces to be able to go to science club, or maths club or to get a job at a high level. As soon as they start including male statistics in female ones, decisions that affect women will happen.

Eg not being allowed to recruit women. Why? Because 90% of our workforce 'identify as women' [eg filled a form in once]. It's just positive action innit? Just like when we had to recruit women back in the day.

Eg not being allowed into science club as 90% of science club members 'identify as girls' ie filled a form out once. Positive action for under-represented groups, only boys allowed to join.

Any woman [and man] who can't see this coming is definitely wrong. they have already deleted women's murders from google and only report transwomen's murders now.

It really is literally like turkeys voting for Christmas. Nothing you say will ever make me think that erasing women completely is the right thing to do. Maybe that's just me?

FizzyWaterAndElderflower · 27/11/2017 08:52

The problem for me isn't just the sheer number of trans threads, it is the insistence that if you don't agree with the FWR orthodoxy on here you are either a) uninformed b) wrong or c) an MRA

So debate. Inform me why I'm wrong. Someone please please give me the new definition for woman, that covers me (traditionally a woman, what with the uterus and all) and a transwoman, but not my sons or male partner.

I'll kick it off - I think a woman is an adult, human, female, where a female is an animal of the reproductive sex which produces large, immobile gametes (ie. eggs)

But according to many, that's wrong now, so what's the new definition?

MargoChanning · 27/11/2017 09:15

That blog post is brilliant.

DJBaggySmalls · 27/11/2017 09:30

FizzyWaterAndElderflower
Someone please please give me the new definition for woman, that covers me (traditionally a woman, what with the uterus and all) and a transwoman, but not my sons or male partner.

There isn't one. If there was, it would be obvious. At some point you will stop fighting that and accept it.
Accept that does not mean people should be discriminated against.

Just that they should not be given rights that dont belong to their group, such as the right to enter the womens area in a synagogue.

Datun · 27/11/2017 09:31

That article is excellent. Anyone who doesn’t understand the problem, do read it.

It explains exactly how and why the laws have changed and how they have come to be exploited.

It really has it all, in a nutshell.

If it doesn’t bother you, fine. If you have the smallest inkling that something might be wrong, or even if you vehemently disagree, read the blog.

The clarification is comprehensive and the implications obvious.

Bucketsandspoons · 27/11/2017 09:52

That article is bloody brilliant. What a concise summation.

whitehandledkitchenknife · 27/11/2017 09:55

Superb article. Sharing the bejesus out of it.

LaContessaDiPlump · 27/11/2017 10:10

That is very good.

YippeeKiYayMelonFarmer · 27/11/2017 10:16

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

Elendon · 27/11/2017 10:33

Thanks OP for the excellent post. It really is a superb article.

What orthodoxy would that be @60sname Please enlighten us!

PugwallsSummer · 27/11/2017 10:44

Thank you for this article - very compelling.

PugwallsSummer · 27/11/2017 10:44

Thank you for this article - very compelling.

slug · 27/11/2017 11:26

What I want to understand is...Trans activists are always telling me Trans people are discriminated against. How? Where? Can they give me examples? Because as far as I can see the only discrimination they can articulate is the discrimination of other people talking about them as if they are biological males.

Can anyone give me an example of a TIM in a job interview being denied the job on the basis of their Trans identity for example. I can't honestly envision the interviewer looking at them and thinking "Going to have to factor maternity leave into this..best not bother"

Datun · 27/11/2017 11:37

They say they are more abused and murdered than any group, anywhere. And that is the mostly the discrimination they talk of. Apart from being accepted, on every level, as female.

There are certainly trans women in high-profile jobs.

Mostly, they say they are being discriminated against on the basis of exclusion from women spaces and feminism, though.

It’s all about forcing people to say they are women and they represent women.

The joke is that anyone can be a feminist! Anyone can campaign for women’s rights. But they don’t want that. They just want to be openly included in the one thing that excludes men by definition.

It’s no coincidence that terf stands for trans exclusionary radical feminist.

You don’t have tees - trans exclusionary employers, or teha- trans exclusionary housing associations.

Elendon · 27/11/2017 11:51

Well these trans women are women women (twaww)
will never be have said at their birth 'another girl, sneeringly',
will never be faced with toys designed to keep them up to date with the latest household appliances and the latest in fashion and makeup. Will never believe they are ugly or weak.
Will never believe that to face womanhood is to face dangers of sexual abuse, sexism, pornography driven sex that debases rather than enhances their sexual pleasure.

Will never have to be inoculated for cervical cancer because of sexual activity.

Will never have to have smear tests.

Will never have to worry about the impact of abortion and failure of contraception.
Will never have to ingest pills daily to prevent pregnancy. Will never face pregnancy.

Will never face breastfeeding, vaginal stitches, abdominal stitches, the dilemma to bottle feed.

Will never have to do wife work.

Will never have to face whether to have a hysterectomy because of menstrual problems or cancer.

Will never have to face breast cancer.

Will never have to face menopause.

Will never be given the tag line little old lady and face the end of life possibly with dementia related illness.

norahnamechange · 27/11/2017 11:55

Brilliant blog. Well done Helen Saxby.

CAAKE · 27/11/2017 11:58

Thank you. That blog is a great resource for people new to the issues.

FizzyWaterAndElderflower · 27/11/2017 12:04

There isn't one. If there was, it would be obvious. At some point you will stop fighting that and accept it.

Well, no - the word 'woman' is used in laws - it needs to be defined if the meaning will change, then the meaning of those laws changes - and if there's no new, defined meaning, then those laws have become powerless and pointless

Accept that does not mean people should be discriminated against.

Well, no, of course not - I don't think asking for a word to be defined is discrimination is it?

Just that they should not be given rights that dont belong to their group, such as the right to enter the womens area in a synagogue.

You just said 'their group' so that group must be definable no? The group 'women' needs to be definable in order for that sentence to make sense. If 'woman' is 'any one who says they are a woman' - then anyone has the right to enter the women's area in a synagogue. You can only have groups when you have definition.

I'm asking for definitions. I don't see why that is unreasonable.

Jenala · 27/11/2017 12:05

Glad people found the post useful. I found it such a comprehensive yet really quite succinct overview. I think it was Datun who said in a recent thread that whenever there is a post on here it's reaching far more people than there are replies, which stuck with me and made it feel important to share it.

This feels like such an important issue. I want to take action but don't know how. There's already plenty of people like Helen writing more clearly on this than I can.

I'd like to go to a talk/event and see these women speak, hear their voices.

OP posts:
NormaStanleyFletcher · 27/11/2017 13:45

Helen is brilliant. I love her. I may have told her this.

DJBaggySmalls · 27/11/2017 13:47

FizzyWaterAndElderflower

Sex is a protected characteristic under the Equality Act. It doesn't need to be redefined as 'biological sex'. 'Sex' already means 'biological sex' just as 'woman' already means 'adult human female'.

Do you really think a gender fluid police officer is the right member of staff to deal with a rape victim or child abuse victim, while presenting as a women?
Because I dont. And I dont think that makes me a bigot.

www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2017/05/23/fluid-gender-policeman/

FizzyWaterAndElderflower · 27/11/2017 14:00

Sex is a protected characteristic under the Equality Act. It doesn't need to be redefined as 'biological sex'. 'Sex' already means 'biological sex' just as 'woman' already means 'adult human female'.

Yes, this is what I believe. This is not what's happening though is it - see the girlguiding thread - girl and woman is being used for gender, not sex, and those sex-based protections are being granted based on self-ided gender, not sex.

I know about the equalities act, but it all goes to pot if this continuous obfuscation continues, if it's not re-enforced that woman refers to a person's sex, and that identifying as a woman is not the same as being one.

Datun · 27/11/2017 14:36

I don’t really know where to put this but this thread seems like a good place.

Out of interest, I wondered whether not netmums were having these conversations. I tried searching for Lily Madigan but it turned up nothing.

I did however start to read a thread about a woman whose husband had come out as trans and he now wanted their young child to stop calling him dad and call him by a female name.

As I read, more women came on to talk about their experience of being married to someone who had come out.

I’ve got to say, I’ve read quite a few of these things, but it was still fairly harrowing.

All the issues we talk about here, in the abstract are utterly ruining peoples lives.

Then a man came on to say he has come out. It comes as no surprise how angry and demented some transactivists sound. He was clearly consumed by being trans.

He was desperately unhappy. As were his family and children.

What comes across, more than anything, is that this is a mental condition. It’s a obliterates everything else in these peoples’ lives. To the point of insanity.

The women are left rudderless and truly desperate, with zero support. Only vilification for not ‘understanding’. The men are obsessive and driven about becoming ‘women‘. Their craving for validation overrides everything. I can’t believe laws are being considered on the back of this illness.

Believe me, there was nothing of my understanding of the word woman about them.

I don’t want to provide a link, because I feel as though these women’s experiences should be confined to that particular website. Out of a respect for their privacy.

But it’s easily searchable.

Bucketsandspoons · 27/11/2017 15:05

Datun how very sad. I vividly remember several posts from a MNetter who has had to handle her husband transitioning, who shared very much that experience.

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