Does anyone listen to The Guilty Feminist podcast? Trans stuff.

[CloudPerson]

I listened to their latest podcast yesterday, the general theme was The Handmaid's Tale.
They brought up some interesting stuff about trans issues and I wanted to discuss them.
On the whole I enjoy the podcast, it's entertaining, their use of cis irritates me, but I do enjoy it.

Their view of transwomen/men was one I generally agree with. Some interesting points about encouraging fluid genders and non binary as this will confuse the patriarchy, which I agree with. People should be who they are, live and dress how they want to be, take away gender, because is damaging bullshit.

However, when I read about things happening now, erasure of women, lesbians etc, the small/vocal/aggressive/homophobic minority, isn't this actively encouraging misogyny and the patriarchy? Keeping people in their neat gender boxes? Encouraging strict gender roles, sexism? It isn't encouraging a more open, welcoming society at all.

If current trans issues were as harmless as TGF podcast says it is, there wouldn't be the opposition. Sure you'd still get your bigots who don't like trans people because they're not fitting in the box, but I certainly wouldn't have any issue at all if it was simply a case of people campaigning to live happily and having a right not to be targeted. But the way it's going I do have a problem, because TRAs campaigns could actively harm women and womens' rights.

Someone on the podcast also mentioned the lack of trans people in The Handmaid's Tale, or they were referenced to as gender traitors and not a big part of the story? (I haven't watched the tv adaptation but read the book a while ago and can't really remember this bit). My take on that is that if current loud TRAs get their way then trans people will be erased anyway, because transwomen are women, I on the face of it, it looks like a purely binary society is their aim? So a potential future could look like some women having fertility issues and not being able to carry babies, but because they are born men, except that won't be spoken of because it's deadnaming/violence/bigotry?

Anyway, not had much sleep, rambling a bit. Just wondered if anyone else had listened to this and what they thought.

I thought she was right Mary

Deborah Frances Whites point was that if you have to struggle and fight to be “you”, then that you is a more worthwhile you than the sort of you which is you by default, ie White middle class male.

So the struggle makes the “you” more real.

I don’t think you can reject it as an individual but you can question it and live in a way that makes others question it too.

I’m not thinking of trans people but before this all came about I think we were heading in a really good direction, I’m thinking of all the butch lesbians who rejected the ridiculous stereotypes of the way women needed to dress and the women who pushed to be allowed into traditionally male roles. People who questioned what masculinity and femininity meant and stood there and said I may stay at home and look after the kids, I may sleep with men and wear dresses but I am still a man.
I think we had come a long way due to hard fought and dangerous fights from not just, but predominantly the gay, lesbian and feminist community to get people to question things that they had previously seen as innate.

Obviously gender is far more nuanced and complicated than what an individual can do but I think that individuals stepping outside of perceived ideas of gender does have a huge part to play in breaking it down.

"sex is not a question of two categories, but a sliding scale with male and female on either end and people dotted around in between"

Its bollocks like this that convinces me that its just a load of trolls talking gibberish.

But sex isn’t a sliding scale.

There’s intersex people but they are rare and it’s not like they are the inbetween bits of men and women.

Also very interesting was the idea of women as privileged compared to trans people. That as a “cis” woman you have privilege which colours your view of the trans debate.

As a white middle class woman one is hugely privileged when compared to any group other than white middle class men.

Apparently there are more chromosomal pairings than xx or xy.

I know nothing about that scientifically so I have no further information.

‘As a white middle class woman one is hugely privileged when compared to any group other than white middle class men.‘

I work with pregnant women and new mothers and seeing the shit that comes with having a female reproductive system I would argue otherwise.

The privilege of being cis. Where men can tell me that I'm privileged for being born female, and they are disadvantaged for being born male.

And what about the white middle class men who throw on a dress half the week and say now they are underprivileged?

It's a trojan horse liberal issue.

Men wearing whatever they like - heels, skirts, long hair, makeup, fantastic. Wholly support that. Anyone who wants to pull faces and tut because a guy is wearing feminine clothes or lives a feminine style of gender needs to get a grip. As a society we're very used to masculine presenting women and have been for pretty much the last century so that's much less of an issue. What you wear, what your name is, how you present yourself on the gender spectrum should not ever be allowed to be grounds for exclusion for a job, rights to marriage, adoption, and absolutely no excuse ever for violence and harassment.

I doubt you'll find anyone on MN who disagrees.

But inside that, which is a case of the 21st century is here, get a grip and let go gender stereotypes, are the highly debatable issues that everyone is afraid to talk about.

A man is a woman if he says so.
'Woman' is a costume and a feeling. Anyone can be a woman.
Some women have penises and this is normal female biology.
Lesbians have no right to refuse sex to a man who identifies himself verbally as a lesbian: homosexuality in women is merely social prejudices that they must be ashamed of and strive to get over for the sake of not distressing and erasing biologically male lesbians.
Anyone who identifies as a woman must have full access to every space reserved for women.
Words and matters associated with biological women - pregnancy, childbirth, breast feeding, periods, infertility, etc - are offensive to women who do not have that biology and should not be referred to, particularly in women's groups.

None of that is a matter of being closed minded. There are real issues there.

I think white middle class women are generally more privileged than:

White working class or poor women
Black middle class women
Asian middle class women
Black men
Indigenous men

for instance.

Look at indigenous Australians - The Handmaids Tale has already happened for them. It’s in their collective past. A WMCW would say it’s a chilling version of the future, whilst completely forgetting that some women have already lived it.

Ok let’s go with that.

So what?

Buckets I get all the second half of your post but to be honest I’m tired of discussing the “what about women’s spaces” topic.

How has a middle class woman being more privileged than a black woman got anything to do with trans? What is it except a silencing technique?

I used to love this podcast but this one annoyed me so much I unsubscribed...........

So what? So whilst we’re fighting for feminism we need to make sure than feminists from groups other than WMCW are represented. Those groups maybe black women or may be trans women. We should be using our privilege to make sure others who don’t have that privilege are heard.

And most of the middle class white feminists I know (I’m not one of them) also fight for women in less privileged positions.

No you did a bait and swap.

Yes we should fight for less privileged women but in that category I don’t include males.

Good. I would include trans women in that group

Well there’s the fundamental difference

Being born female is not a privilege over being born male.

In what way are trans women women then lion?

In my view the gender theorists (and the pomo people in general) have it all backwards. They are not in the business of challenging gender: they are reifying it. You can't challenge oppression unless you have a class analysis because oppression is structural. Individual feelz are just individual feelz.

The logical conclusion of the trans agenda is no change. Well, the only change will be men are still in charge but some of them will have a feminine presentation. That's it.

Males will be over-represented in positions of power and influence in the category "woman". Females will be under-represented in positions of power and influence in the category "man". Middle and upper class white males will still be appropriating the murders of black prostituted TIMs as evidence they are oppressed.

I read this nonsense they spout and I realise they believe it and they really do believe they are ushering a new world with more social justice. And my brain just explodes with frustration at the stupidity of it all!

It depends on your race, but if you’re talking whole people then no.

It’s a privilege over being born trans though

white people