Men whose lives are facilitated by women Part 2

[OlennasWimple]

Continuation of the other thread that got filled up

Also I quite deliberately gendered my examples there, because it is more women. However I suspect the male participation (by which I don't just mean dads) might be higher in deprived areas. In my family the men do quite a bit of the school running too, though it's the women who are doing the mental load thing of arranging it with each other.

It's OK for dad to work long hours and never see them, it's OK for mum to only be "mum" but nothing else?

Here's a thing - my kids know what I do, that I'm a programmer, and proudly tell people that that's what they want to be when they grow up (I talk to them about my job, they've seen me at my computer etc). They have no idea at all what their dad does for a living though, so in some ways, by staying home more with them, I've become more human, more fully rounded and present than their father. I don't know what that means, but I feel like it'll mean something.

Yolo, come and talk to us when you actually have a child and your BF had become a SAHD or even reduced his hours to PT. With respect, you have got no idea how EVERYTHING changes after having a child. I too was a career woman with achievement as her biggest concern. I planned to be back at work FT within 4 months. That was when I was pregnant and before my first child was born. Everything changed once he was here. They become your only concern once you are a mother. And no career or anything else will take precedence over their well-being.

You have got a totally different dynamics in your household now just because you haven’t got kids. You will appreciate this once you become parents.

I've just been thinking aboutthis facilitation thing. It does happen to some (not many) women, some of whom have been on this thread.

What interests me is that when a working mother gets to the very top and succeeds, she is derided for having that facilitation in a way that men never are. I'll take Victoria Beckham as an example because she is so often slagged off on MN along the lines of "Well of course she can be that successful / work away at fashion shows / have time to exercise, she's got 7 nannies and a housekeeper and a PA and chef and a whole army of helpers...it's easy for her." Have you ever heard that said about a mega-successful man? No? I thought not.

It's so common and accepted for successful men to be facilitated (by paid and unpaid women in his life) that it's never commented on. If a women has the same support she's somehow seen as "cheating" because she's not doing it all herself like so many women are

Yolo
Loads of people would choose to not work, only women get more opportunity and it's more socially acceptable, so they choose not to - which perpetuates the current situation with pay gaps, job imbalances etc.

Have you actually read this thread and the one before this? Of course we are all lazy feckers after an easy life. FFS. I can only forgive this because you haven’t carried a child, birthed them, breastfed them, didn’t sleep for months/years with them waking up etc. AND did a job on top of it, as well as look after your family’s well-being. NO MAN can do this. And no women should be expected to either!

yolo

The sahp model can work - this thread isn’t about wohm vs sahm.

You have a set idea about how things work. The problem is that you’ve not lived it yet and not seen the way society treats you. I had no intention of reproduction halting my career either - and yet as soon as work knew I was pregnant they stripped my reporting chain and every single bit of interesting work off me, and started trying to force me out.
On my return from maternity leave I was given a lower status role and ejected from the unit I’d been leading the Eu/Asia/Pacific side of. It’s taken me a year to claw my way back up to where I should have re entered the status quo.

And I find it hard - and that with an equal partner who pulls his weight in the family load. Many times I’ve considered it’d be easier to just jack work in.

I hope it works out better for you

They become your only concern once you are a mother. And no career or anything else will take precedence over their well-being.

And why is this never said about FATHERS?

In my family this clearly wasn't the case - my mum worked 4 days a week while doing a phD in the evenings, before my brother was school age. Her career as an academic was also important and I have so much respect for her, much more than if she'd "sacrificed" all that (oh and she was lower paid, academia). You can have the utmost care for your kids' wellbeing and also work full-time to achieve something for yourself.

In any case, our company is very flexible and PT-friendly (me and BF have same job in same company, so no reason for one of us to quit - we'd both go PT). We both go home at 5 and can say no to overtime if we have plans.

I've seen one guy at my company be given 10 projects and working up to 16 hours a day while his wife sits at home with 2 kids, always calling him asking when he's coming home, completely isolated. I can say right now I wouldn't want that to be us, ever, and neither does my BF.

On my return from maternity leave I was given a lower status role and ejected from the unit I’d been leading the Eu/Asia/Pacific side

That's awful, and isn't that illegal too?

Yolo maybe you will fall lucky with your employer and your BF will step up to the parentin g plate and all will be well in your world.

But doesn't it concern you that that is not the case in the overwhelming majority of women's lives? I think what we are talking about here is not individual cases but how society sees, judges and treats women. Not how individual men and women act.

I also agree that you may not feel quite so sanguine when you've been on the receiving end of this shit!

Anatidae, and that is when you DO have excellent and affordable childcare available provided by highly qualified early years professionals, not NMW straight-out-of-college minimal qualifications nursery workers we have in the UK. And even with a partner who WANTS to be truly equal. Let’s be honest, this last one is extremely rare.

I can only forgive this because you haven’t carried a child, birthed them, breastfed them, didn’t sleep for months/years with them waking up etc. AND did a job on top of it, as well as look after your family’s well-being

The birthing and breastfeeding part is what a year mat leave is for. After that, both of you can get up in the night. Both of you can look after the family's wellbeing. This argument is hardly relevant when the child is nursery-age?

"I have to do all this" - no, both of you should, and no-one needs to be a martyr.

Yolo maybe you will fall lucky with your employer and your BF will step up to the parentin g plate and all will be well in your world.

In my family, my mum/auntie/grandma all worked FT in successful careers, and in my mum/auntie's case, their partners also contributed at least 50:50 to the household.

My BF's dad did all the pickups/driving/packed lunches because his mum's job had longer hours.

Is that unusual?

Yes. Yes it is. Very.

Yolo
In any case, our company is very flexible and PT-friendly (me and BF have same job in same company, so no reason for one of us to quit - we'd both go PT).

Double-check this family-friendliness carefully. I have just had a conversation with a young male colleague about shared parental leave. He'd just asked if he could arrange to take some, and was slapped down with 'We really intend that for the mother'.

He's a nice, unassuming sort of chap and just came away thinking, 'Oh dear, oh well, find a different plan.' He looked a bit startled when I told him they were clearly still the same sexist bastards they'd been twenty years back when they'd sniffed at my maternity appointments, refused to make any adjustments to allow for pregnancy, and made part-time (or even on-time) work an impossibility.

Yolo, your workplace sounds very good. Just hope you don’t have the rose-tinted spectacles fall off your eyes when you do come to experience motherhood and the change it brings, like it happened to me and many other pps on this thread. We all had great plans beforehand, but somehow real world kicks in and heavily influences the available ‘choices’. We are all educated women with a brain cell or two between us. Please don’t patronise and imply we just didn’t try hard enough, and had we really wanted something, it will all be achievable. This is exactly what the discussion is about. You don’t seem to quite get it yet, I reckon due to lack of real first hand experience. Will be interesting to see how your outlook changes 3-6 years into motherhood. It is when it kicked in for me.

That's awful, and isn't that illegal too?

Yes to both - but one other thing you realise when you have this happen to you is that big companies can do whatever they want. I called my union - ‘yes that’s illegal. Do you want us to fight it for you? Bear in mind that even if you win you will likely be blacklisted.’

The ideal is they wrong you and you fight and get justice. The reality is a long legal battle, massive stress and cost, and then your job is untenable anyway.

And I’m one of the more fortunate ones. Dh isn’t a pig, and we try hard to be equal. We have quality childcare (albeit fecking miles away and restricted hours.)

When you get pregnant, you see suddenly that actually, it isn’t equal. At all. I have to say that what I envisaged my life to be and what it is are quite different, even with the benefit of a professional career, a decent husband and living in a child friendly country.

I dont want that to sound patronising- it’s very easy to say ‘just wait until you have kids’ and that can come across a bit twatty, but yeah... it took me experiencing it to have it sink in - I was a feminist before, but I’m an angry feminist now.

And yes, you can both get up in the night. But I’ll tell you now that if your BF does, and does regularly, he’s in a minority. It is SO easy to fall into the woman at home setup. It really is.

It’s a hard issue because it cuts to the core of the fact that society does not value women, or the things that women ‘traditionally do’ as much as men, and their things.’

Yes. Yes it is. Very.

If it makes any difference, my family are from another country where childcare was free, mat leave was 3 years and everyone worked. SAHMs weren't really a thing when my mum had me (of children over 3y/o). Anyone with school-age kids worked.

When we moved to England (I was 6), I was sort of shocked to find so many households were any different.

And most of the SAHMs I know (my step-cousins) aren't doing it because their job kicked them out or nursery was unaffordable - it's because they have rich husbands and they never had jobs or wanted them. Though my British BF seems to have had the same set up as me, his dad did most of the "wifework" and his mum always worked.

I think the cost of childcare in this country is the main factor.

In any case, our company is very flexible and PT-friendly (me and BF have same job in same company, so no reason for one of us to quit - we'd both go PT).

This can be a facade - lots of companies tick these boxes because frankly, they have to. However... you go back part time and you’re on a different track. You won’t get the interesting projects, and you won’t advance. Not just not advance proportionately to the time you work - not just 20% less if you work 20% less, say, but disproportionately. You won’t be seen in the same way you were before.
Because the big deals and the big projects need you to be there late (well they don’t really, most of the time, but late it is anyway.) or travel at short notice.

I expected a year off for mat leave, come back a year behind, catch up, crack on. That is not what’s happened, and yet my employer Toots their horn about being flexible

God, the way you guys say it, it does sound shit.

My mum's academic department is very family friendly, being 50:50 women. My company seems to be?

Think this is also because we are out of London. London companies seem to have this blokey overtime drinking culture which I hated even as a graduate. "Provincial" companies seem to be a bit better

I dunno, the woman opposite me is Principal level and works 4 days a week, goes home at 3 and seems to get loads of interesting projects.

But she has also worked there for a decade because apparently it's hard to find that in many other companies in our industry, even if they pay better.

Yolo,
"I have to do all this" - no, both of you should, and no-one needs to be a martyr.

Should happen is very different to what does happen. Exactly the point of the thread.

Sorry to break this to you, but all problems do not disappear as soon as children are old enough to go to nursery and, most surprisingly, even when they start primary school.

I am old enough to know that your Mother’s achievements did not come without a cost. I will let you ponder what that cost may have been.

Because there WILL be a cost. Take it from somebody who lived it.

Good luck with your plans and sincerely wish things turn out just as you want them to!

I actually think there is a deeper problem that whatever the activity or work carried out inside or outside the home it will be less valued and considered less important if carried out by women.

YY to that one. It’s true for work inside the house (which is automatically seen as the women because it’s so boring anyway) but also at work (see the numerous examples where a woman brings an idea it’s rejected, a man brings the same idea 2 hours later and it’s amazing etc etc)

But she has also worked there for a decade because apparently it's hard to find that in many other companies in our industry, even if they pay better.

And thus her choices are contained... she’s like me - senior enough, but caught because if she moves things may just be that little bit worse and everything will fall apart. It’s like Heathrow - functional chaos, one plane fucks up and the whole edifice crumbles.

Good luck (I mean that genuinely, not in a snarky way.)

And when you have kids, discuss these things with your bf. Make sure you divide the work equally - we always had the philosophy that the time he went to work and I was at home on maternity was 1FTE. Then... When we were both home everything was split 50:50. I doubt we’ve been perfect and there have been times where one or the other has had to do more, but I think it sets a background of equality to work with.

I think a big part of the problem is that there just need to be so many ducks in a row before you can get a fair setup, and they're not all in your control either.

As an example, DH and I both work part time, have a fairly equal home life that is, at minimum, better than most, and he has always done some childcare without me. I've still experienced discrimination in the workplace to the extent that I've got a settlement agreement behind me, and I've not been shortlisted for at least one job that I know full well is maternity related. If I weren't in a sector where there's a shortage of people with my skills, my career could've been really fucked over, and as it is my name is still mud in a couple of places.

If you want things like flexible working, even if your company walk the walk as well as talking the talk, sometimes it only takes something like a new manager, a merger, a new client or something else that blindsides you to fuck that all up. A setup that seems to be and indeed is brilliant now, can stop being so quite quickly.

This is perhaps the distinction between living in a culture where a lot of flexibility etc is enshrined into normal working practices like you did growing up yolo, and one where it's very much at the discretion of an individual employer. You're reliant on them playing ball. They don't always.

@IsaSchmisa, very true.