Labour officials quit in transgender row

[Betty184]

www.thetimes.co.uk/edition/news/labour-officials-quit-in-transgender-row-06qtj2b3r

I also disagree that trans women are at greater risk of violence than women. Wholeheartedly.

Show me the evidence.

Factsarenotmean - I understand your point and thank you for 'the 'courtesy' that you have extended to us trans folk over the years in the bathroom. I'm hopeful that as far as you're concerned that none of us has abused it? Don't worry too much about your sympathy, I'm sure you'd be better saving it for a group more deserving. I'll leave that to your personal choice.

Personally, I'm really tired of TRA's and some less understanding folk on their opposing side using myself and others as the pawns in their battle ground. After reading some comments on other forums on this site I personally feel like a medic looking at the family of a dead teenager shaking their head and looking uncomfortably at the floor. . I don't wholly agree with an expansion of rights to just anyone who says on a whim that they are male or female and if I'm honest, firmly believe that this recent interest from government is more than likely to be a drive to push trans care into the private sector. That said, I'm full of conspiracy theories.

If you don't feel that you can extend that courtesy that you once could that's fair enough. Firstly, I'll wish you loads of luck in routing us ( the original group) out without breaking any laws. Maybe those who can spot other undesirable groups easily such as a drink driver or child abuser by sight alone will be able to help you?

I'm really sorry if my reply sounds a bit pedantic but after all these years of fighting, I suspect I'm finally going to have the rug pulled from underneath me by a generation that have had all this given to them (in a trans sense at least) on a plate.

Good luck in your quest 🙂

Beingrippedoff - The can of worms is so very open as you say. Hopefully I'll be able to carry on my peaceful, well paid productive life. If not, I guess I'll be another £600-700 per month on the welfare bill. Probably more if I can prove I was forced into it which judging by the Daily Mail, Sun and comments on many forums won't be too difficult to show the evidence to the DWP.

Yes, it's difficult to speak out in my situation. I'm very centre ground and at the same time a bit old fashioned in my belief about all things trans. I must admit though, I watched a wildlife programme a couple of weeks ago and a huge female fish of some kind went into a cave for a while, subjected herself to spontaneously produced male hormones and re-emerged from the said cave as an alpha male. I'm sure a Google search of some kind will find this to prove I've not been smoking funny cigarettes. If I was only about a thousand years younger I'm sure some biochemical engineering with this fish would help the transsexual cause.

ALittleBitOfButter

They try to be balanced but of course are accused of transphobia. They came under fire for publishing a Miranda Yardley piece (they published a few). When they published that piece they had a "trans" (or similar) tag. That appears to have now been removed from more recent articles.

This is the latest (excluding the topic of the thread) I could find-

www.morningstaronline.co.uk/a-27f4-The-gender-identity-debate-explored

I don't think there is a conspiracy to cause discord on the left with this particular issue but I think the left/right politics are being used with laser precision by those who want to shut women out of this debate.

Alittlebitofbutter - I'm really glad you're the last reply for the night, I'm tired. Who is going to stand up for young trans people to have babies you ask? Well, as a responsible trans adult, I'm guessing that'll be me and others like me! I'm sure I'm not alone and we will happily help you or any other young trans person to safely get where they want to be. It appears that you can have your re-productive things frozen be it sperm or eggs. I'm sorry for not being specific which but your user name doesn't make it clear and I'd be wrong to guess. Despite my flippancy, I promise that in doing so, we will try to get you to take into account the rights of many other groups who inhabit this planet in a way that will hopefully lead to us all rubbing along (we did nearly have it one time but some decided more was required and *ked it all up). But we will clearly look after your welfare until physical limitations prevent these actions. After that, I suppose you're on your own but I'm sure like those of us before you, you'll manage. I'm sorry , I'm old and cynical and must be more progressive and less early hours grouchy but, it's hard when you're getting old and the pre frontal cortex isn't as reliable as it used to be in stopping you talking your mind.

I'm also sorry to disappoint you but passing doesn't equal safety and I'm really sorry if I suggested that in any way, it really wasn't my intention. However, If it helps, I will say that the fear of crime or being the victim of is disproportionate to the actual chance of being a victim of crime if statistics are to be believed. That said, I'm sure you know what they say about statistics. In reality it'll be fine love, if you're trans and under 15 the possibilities are amazing. Good luck. 🙂

Alittlebitofbutter - I'm sorry, I missed your last bit and an important point of your first bit. My reading of your questions suggest they are a bit conflictory in their direction but, I'll do my best. Maybe I've misunderstood, I'm sure you'll tell me if I have! Firstly, I've never suggested we can't talk about anything. Debate is good, what follows not debating is often bad. I'm getting older and don't get out too much anymore so, I have little more than things like this at times when I'm not at work to keep me interested.

My remark that transwomen are at greater risk of violent crime was probably a bit premature given that I've no statistics to hand to support that. I just used my own anecdotal feelings from walking through work and enduring regular looks of hate from a few people who know I'm trans who work closely with me. Not very scientific and for that, I'm sorry. Maybe that's not a trans thing though I suppose. So, I apologise for making that remark and will do some research to find out about the chances of being the victim of a violent or hate related crime if you're trans as oppose to being a genetic female. Of course percentages with regards to the whole population will have to be taken into account rather than flat figures to give a true picture.

As you request, at some juncture, I'll show you the evidence with a big dollop of humble pie if I'm wrong.

Sleep well. 🙂

How can you freeze sperm and eggs if you haven't gone through puberty?

Who would gestate anyway? A poor, thirdworld woman?

I think it would be interesting to look at the stats from countries which have unisex toilets etc. I never hear much about there being real issues with any type of harassment etc.

That was an unnecessarily snide response which clearly demonstrates that you don't actually understand other people's perspectives on this at all.

Yes, it is very unlikely that male sex offenders are going to increase their activities by donning women's clothes and bursting into changing.

No, it's not, and the British Association of Gender Identity Specialists submitted evidence of a 'growing tide' of sex offenders doing it:

pdf

Or on GenderTrender:

GenderTrender Article

Men throughout history have gone to ridiculous lengths to watch women change, to assault them - shoe mirrors, fake arms, planting cameras, living in roof spaces! Drilling holes etc. What on earth makes you think they won't fill in a form? They don't even have to buy a dress if the law goes through - they literally will have to fill in a form, and perhaps hand over a bit of money. PLUS policies will have to reflect that you can't even ask to see that form, so basically opening it to anyman at all, and if they're just there to look, then despite that enormous invasion of women and girls privacy, who's going to prosecute them?

Means tested according to the Scottish consultation - maximum cost to change sex = £30.

I never hear much about there being real issues with any type of harassment etc.

ForrestPlump there's another thread on MN at the mo which is discussing at what age should boys stop using the women's loos with their mum. There's one poster whose daughters have stopped using public facilities at all (including going swimming or to the gym) because they can't cope with encountering teenage boys in the girls' facilities.

I also posted about the gender-neutral loos in Camden Lock, where a goodly number of men don't bother shutting the doors, so you get to have a lovely eyeful of Stranger Peen. This may be laziness, or it may just be a way for these disgusting men to flash at women and have an "excuse" - I don't know and I don't care. Gender neutral toilets aren't the solution to everything, and just because you don't hear about it doesn't mean it never happens.

'Is anyone starting think that tm has put out the gender recognition bill in order to cause more infighting on the left.'

The more I think about it, the more I wonder if it is a cost cutting exercise. If self-id becomes law, and GID is considered to be a feeling rather than a condition, then there is no obligation for the NHS to provide treatment. Although, trans people make up a very small percentage of the population, full SRS and associated therapies and treatments cost 10s of thousands, so even a small number of patients can run up a large bill. Removing the entitled to treatment will mean this money does not need to be spent.

Theresa May doesn't seem to agree, and she is the PM.

www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/theresa-may-transgender-not-illness-gender-recognition-act-lgbt-rights-sex-edution-homophobia-pink-a8008486.html

I can see they might introduce some kind of two-tier system, but knowing what I know about the way the Tories treat other illnesses, conditions and disabilities, I would imagine it will be one that makes people with dysphoria jump through even more hoops in order to obtain treatment, and for them, it won't be easier at all.

The NHS web page on gender dysphoria is explicit in terming it not to be a mental illness.

"Gender dysphoria is a recognised medical condition, for which treatment is sometimes appropriate. It's not a mental illness."

www.nhs.uk/conditions/gender-dysphoria/

* I don’t think that there any moves to declassify gender dysphoria as a mental illness - it’s well recognised that left untreated It’s a dangerous condition with high rates of suicide and self harm.It’s just that there is a push to ‘decouple’ being trans from gender disphoria i.e. you don’t have to be disphoric to be classed as transgender.*

The ‘treatment’ that is pushed is transition though, not mental health treatment. There have been numerous posters explaining that they have tried to seek counselling for their DCs that are experiencing dysphoria, and they simply aren’t being given access to it because it is no longer seen as an illness. Instead they are offered puberty blockers. Add to that the fact that counsellors have either drunk the kool aid or are too concerned about being labelled pro-conversion-therapy bigots to approach sessions with the hope the child may reconcile with their sex, and there’s not really much hope at all. It’s thoroughly depressing.

another lesbian harassed and silenced by males. Fuckers

Of course there are a minority group called TRA trying to push what most consider an extreme agender but the majority in both communities live life quietly and peacefully just trying their best to remain out of the public glare. They certainly don't speak for the majority anymore than the EDL speak for the majority of white English folk.

Excellent points, @LucyLu The transwomen I have worked with (not many) also just want to get on with life.

The real problem is that the "reforms" being proposed in the new Gender Recognition bill (or is it an Act?) are problematic for all sorts of reasons which have been hashed out here & elsewhere several times.

And there have been actually physically violent attempts to stop people organising & getting together to discuss the implications of the GRA and getting together to lobby & campaign.

Shows how toxic the 'transphobia' label is

I'm starting to regard the terms "|transphobic" and "TERF,' when used in debate, to be the new Godwin's Law.

In reality it'll be fine love, if you're trans and under 15 the possibilities are amazing. Good luck. 🙂
Possibilities of what?
Neurological development is surging during teenage years, we don't know what effect hormones will have on that but are likely to be very influential.
Synthetic hormones are known to have an adverse long term effect on libido from research in women on the pill.
Puberty blockers/cross sex hormones stop genital development and so it stands to reason also hinder ability to orgasm/sex drive.
Withdrawal of female sex hormones from the female body can cause all kinds of distressing symptoms such as osteoporosis, vaginal atrophy and dryness. That's why many post menopausal women take HRT.
I can see that to an adult who transitioned post puberty likes the idea they can be the way they are (adult cognitive ability, adult libido and sex drive) but pass better due to not going through puberty. But I don't think that's achievable and it's hugely harmful to trans identifying children to suggest that it is.
Some of the things female detransitioners suffer with are heart breaking and trans campaigners are letting them down hugely by pretending that blockers are safe and cross sex hormones do no harm