Labour officials quit in transgender row

[Betty184]

www.thetimes.co.uk/edition/news/labour-officials-quit-in-transgender-row-06qtj2b3r

They certainly don't speak for the majority

This may be true, LucyLu - but they are the ones with the ear of the government, they are the ones driving the political agenda, they are the ones in the forefront of getting the laws changes, sitting on the boards in political parties, think tanks, universities, etc. They are the ones who are stripping away the right of women to privacy and safety and access to sex-segregated services. They aren't a fringe group, and they can't be ignored. Maybe you can try to live your life "quietly and peacefully", I'd like that too, but that just isn't an option for any of us who want to hold onto the women's rights we've spent so many years establishing.

White English people who are not racists speak out against the EDL all the time - not just to whine that not all white people are like that (ok, some people do that, but they are rightly criticised for it).

Maybe if this majority of trans people don't like how they are presented by TRAs they should say so rather than criticise women for criticising the TRAs.

So why can’t the ones who want to ‘live quietly’ campaign to have separate trans services rather than dominating women’s ones?

Florafox - You're absolutely right that some would like to see it de-medicalised. I don't agree with that stance, I'm no too sure it's strictly a mental condition but de-medicalising it would suggest it's not a condition and in my opinion be counter-productive to their (TRA) agenda. You're also right to have said that GD is not a requirement of being transgender but is a requirement of being transsexual. Maybe more of our general main stream community should speak out however, like most communities we're busy working, living standard lives with our partners and generally don't have time for it. I'm sure there are a couple of papers that would never support that narrative.

For what it's worth in my opinion TRA do go too far, any violence is abhorrent and lots of the things they want, there is, just in my opinion no need for. Quite how they find time for it all I'm not sure. Personally, I don't have any other agenda than to live my life in peace in a way that it should have always been. I've no wish to force a view point, it's a huge planet and there's plenty of room for all of us.

I just get a little bit fed up of all the trans negative stuff I keep hearing. We're not in the US, yes, there is lots of bigotry here but we're never going to target trans people the way they are hounded in places like North Carolina and Texas and no amount of pushing by those papers is going to change that.

Lucy if you don't have the time or inclination to put forward your "live quietly" agenda, which many here would absolutely agree with, perhaps consider not spending the time you do have "not all trans"ing at women trying to discuss the impact the TRAs are going to have on them.

I can fully understand the decent people in the trans community not speaking out about the TRAs. This could lead to horrible real world consequences.

But as soon as this is understood, then it has to be acknowledged that TRAs are causing real harm.

This is the charming Adrie:

www.northstandchat.com/showthread.php?173384-I-got-skanked-by-a-whore
www.northstandchat.com/showthread.php?89197-XxSouthern-Seagull-GalsxX
(he is '1066gull')

Should tell you all you need to know.

It is disturbing that the viewpoints of such people are taken into consideration by the Labour party. Shows how toxic the 'transphobia' label is.

The EDL equivalent faction is driving policy in Holyrood and Westminster, really can't ignore that and just say 'oh well , most trans ppl just want a quiet life'.

This really bothers me - i have a disabled teen who needs help with personal care. I really don't mind a trans who just wants a quiet life helping her. But I am really angry that I will not be able to say NO to an AGP.
And I can't really tell the difference, can I?

Archeryannie - you'll have to bear with me I'm a bit slow with my iPad. You're totally right and I don't condone anyone for trampling on women's rights. Sex segregated spaces are there for a reason and the is because socialised ourselves far more than any other breed and the protection and privacy of a female rightly became important.

Personally, I live my life as a female in physical and outward appearance. I was born by a quirk of bio-chemistry biologically male and went through a proportion of my life trying my best to keep it that way. I'm never going to make any sort of claim that I'm anything other than a trans female and yes, having not had a standard female puberty I do personally feel less of a female than a genetically born female. In my opinion though it doesn't mean I should be treated any differently than anyone else. I use female facilities and changing rooms but I wouldn't wish to have gender neutral ones. Personally, I'd look very out of place in a male changing room and would likely be at the same if not a higher level of risk than many other females in there. Years of hormone treatments and surgery are not conducive to maintaining a male strength. On the other side of the coin segragating 0.3 per cent of the worlds population starts to look very late 1930's early 40's. But, I do agree that all females whether they be transsexual or genetically born deserve a safe space.

The ear of the government will be had by a sensible debate in the end. I can't imagine hoards of men wanting to declare themselves 'legally female'. There are a few changes I'd make like reducing the prohibitive £140 cost of obtaining a GRC or having to send intimate details of the medical procedures you have endured to a group of faceless bureaucrats. Changes to medical procedures such as trans people having to travel hundreds of miles to access care and wait sometimes on waiting lists of two to three years to access that care. Take away those hurdles and TRA will start to disappear from the prominent position it appears to have now.

It's not really a 'quirk' of biochemistry, surely. I mean we are talking about half the population.

You have a daughter and are in a relationship with a woman?

like most communities we're busy working, living standard lives with our partners and generally don't have time for it

I understand this, LucyLu. I don't have time for this, either. I'm busy, too. I've got so many more things I'd rather do (and need to do) than spend another minute thinking or talking or acting on this.

But I don't have a choice if I don't want my safety, privacy and rights taken away. That's the difference.

Florafox - you're totally right, generally don't have a lot of time, but, today I commented on an article and some not unlike yourself kindly replied. It was only polite of me to reply in turn . My live quietly agenda is put forward into a very public domain on the front line of the NHS everyday I'm at work. Rather than me shout about it, I do find that by getting on with my job (helping the sick and injured) that I push forward that agenda that most of us do live quiet respectful lives. I find it really lovely to hear some comments from folk who have changed their opinion because of the way I have treated them personally or professionally. If it doesn't suit some other agendas to acknowledge that in the main that is how we exist then I'm sorry for that but I'm very unlikely to be found agitating for that. That said, I've recently been involved in discussions with other trans folk supporting a need for gender segregated changing rooms. I've also been on a couple of non related marches through London with respect to peace etc... which I found quite fulfilling.

Pisacake - no, I do have a daughter yes but am in a relationship with a man.

By ‘transsexual females’ I’m assuming you mean trans men?

Lucylu I've known people who lives their lives as you do my whole life, and it's never been a problem. My life has been full of gender nonconforming people, and indeed I've been one of them.

But it is a problem now, and it's not going away. Because of what the TRAs are doing ("choke on my ladydick, TERF" and all the rest of it) I do now see all trans-identified males as a threat, because there is no way for me to distinguish between gender nonconforming people who just want a quiet life presenting however they wish, and fetish-obsessed men who hate women. And the proposed laws won't distinguish between them, either, so I have to act to protect myself and other women and girls.

How does someone pass flawlessly enough to enter women changing rooms and toilets unnoticed, yet get abuse in the streets, presumably for being trans, and have a greater risk than women in male areas? I'm not asking you to justify your comments, Lucy, but its an argument I've heard a lot that I don't quite understand.

To me, it seems like throwing all of the possible reasons into the discussion, even if they contradict each other.

Nauticant - TRA's are likely to real harm to both genetic females and transsexual females in my opinion. Yes, it is very unlikely that male sex offenders are going to increase their activities by donning women's clothes and bursting into changing. I won't claim it doesn't or won't happen but it's just unlikely. That said, having met a number of rape victims in my time, both female and male I totally understand why gender safe spaces are required and am an advocate of them. The likes of Top Shop etc... pretend they're pandering to TRA when in all likelihood that greedy guy Green probably sees a profit opportunity out of it. I don't agree with excluding a transsexual female from a female changing rooms and I know that is probably a controversial opinion here but that's just how I feel.

Big desktop - I can't remember ever claiming to physically pass flawlessly, I do my best and over time with medical treatment things have got better for me. I pass in a changing room, in a toilet and in a street because in general people are far too busy or polite to notice the finer points. Try one day stopping dead in the street and asking yourself some questions about the last five people who walked past you. I find myself in general I can't answer too much in detail.

With respect to being at risk in a male area, I think you'll find more men willing to attack a transsexual female just for being transsexual. But, hopefully I've answered your point.

ArcheryAnnie- I'll admit I find the word TERF and the way TRA use it awful. It's insulting and derogatory. Any such reference to 'choke on my lady dick' has no place in genuine debate. From a transsexual perspective the fact that most of us spent the early part of our lives being horrified at what lay between our legs is exactly why a term like that holds no place in debate.

I think you'll find more men willing to attack a transsexual female just for being transsexual.

That is absolutely and categorically wrong. As a female i am far far far more likely than you to experience sexual assault/violence. And don't you forget it, or let your dd forget it.

As a lesbian who feels pretty vulnerable lately, and who has been told my sexual identity of 'lesbian' is old-fashioned and 'problematic' and 'exclusionary' recently, I'm sad at the way this thread has been derailed.

An out, lesbian woman, who does not conform to femininity, has been forced out of politics. That's awful. I hope she gets all the support she deserves, and doesn't give up.

Lucy,

You sound lovely x

Sleighbellend - No, not at all. In my opinion a trans man would be a female to male transsexual. A transwoman, the other way. I did see via a link on you tube recently a slightly passively aggressive girl use the term that way but in my opinion which I'm starting to imagine is a lone one in this particular arena she was wrong. But I'm sure we're both grown up enough to agree to disagree on that one.

"With respect to being at risk in a male area, I think you'll find more men willing to attack a transsexual female just for being transsexual. "

Where will I find this information?