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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Labour officials quit in transgender row

97 replies

Betty184 · 15/11/2017 01:18

www.thetimes.co.uk/edition/news/labour-officials-quit-in-transgender-row-06qtj2b3r

OP posts:
Lucylu75 · 15/11/2017 13:28

Superloudpoppingaction - I'm sorry the thread has gone that way which is mostly my fault for replying to the posts in the first place. In my opinion albeit based on very little knowledge of the story is that she shouldn't have been forced out. And, anyone who thinks you're sexual identity as lesbian is problematic etc... is in my opinion wrong as well. As a result of that, I'll let the thread get back to its original purpose and if anyone has questions for me, I'm sure I'll reply to polite in time.

nauticant · 15/11/2017 13:29

Thanks for engaging Lucylu75. I think it's worth including in this discussion the facts that transsexuals and transgender people are often distinct and the TRAs, who might or might not be transgender people but who are likely to be transsexuals, are a toxic element in the debate.

ArcheryAnnie · 15/11/2017 13:31

Lucylu I think there's some pretty fundamental things we disagree on - but there's also plenty of things we do agree on. What would induce you to talk to others about this, not just us on here?

nauticant · 15/11/2017 13:36

Bah:

but who are likely to be transsexuals

but who are unlikely to be transsexuals

SerendipityFelix · 15/11/2017 13:44

Absolutely Superloud. I’m not quite sure how a story about a lesbian woman serving as a women’s officer for her local Labour Party being harassed by a man in the name of transactivism to the point where she and the entire executive committee have resigned from the party in protest, has ended up with the thread all focusing on one transwoman’s opinion on - I’m not quite sure what, but it feels like we’re being told we’re doing something wrong!

LucyLu I really want to welcome you to FWR and I think it’s so important that all voices are not just heard, but listened to. But with the greatest respect this thread was started about what has happened to Anne Ruzylo so perhaps we can discuss her rather than you. There are tonnes of other threads on various trans related issues that you could weigh in on too!

SerendipityFelix · 15/11/2017 13:49

Cross posted with you LucyLu! I hope you do feel comfortable sticking around and joining in ‘the discussion’ on a wider basis on the boards Smile

SerendipityFelix · 15/11/2017 13:55

Back to the topic though - I think the regional party needs to explain how the situation has come to the point of resignations because people felt they were being prevented from carrying out their roles due to continued harrasment within the party. If this situation happened in a workplace it would be constructive dismissal. A gender non conforming gay woman has been bullied out of the party, for standing up for women, and Labour need to address this.

sleighbellend · 15/11/2017 13:58

But trans women are not female.

BigDeskBob · 15/11/2017 14:16

Harriet harman said that much of the abuse women face in Westminster goes unchallenged is because of party loyalty. No one wants to give the other side ammunition, therefore issues are swept under the carpet and not dealt with. Maybe, in part, that's what's going on here? Although enough politicians speak up against their party on other issues.

I think its a case of women not being taken seriously.

FloraFox · 15/11/2017 14:24

pisacake how do you know that's him? Disgusting posts. He's the one who should be dealt with by the party.

I agree with Serendipity - Labour need to address this.

FloraFox · 15/11/2017 14:59

Wow! That's shocking.

BatShite · 15/11/2017 15:00

That said, having met a number of rape victims in my time, both female and male I totally understand why gender safe spaces are required and am an advocate of them.

I don't agree with excluding a transsexual female from a female changing rooms and I know that is probably a controversial opinion here but that's just how I feel.

These two are sadly in contradiction with each other though.

I see you also said you would not want to use gender neutral.

Can you see how these views do not make much sense when held simultaneously?

You agree sex segregated areas are needed. But you also think they should not be segregated by sex and would not wish to use a unisex space yourself.

BatShite · 15/11/2017 15:06

Yes, it is very unlikely that male sex offenders are going to increase their activities by donning women's clothes and bursting into changing. I won't claim it doesn't or won't happen but it's just unlikely.

I really do not think it is unlikely at all given the lengths a lot of males go to to gain access to vulnerable females, and also no 'womens clothes' would be required anyway.

You do sound like a lovely person. You sound very much like a few transwomen (post-op) I know in real life. Sadly though, people like yourself are now the minority in this movement. Its being driven by narcissistic, misogynistic, and often perverted males. Please note, this is not me saying transsexual people are any of these things. Transactivists tend to be though. Transactivists from what I see are unlikely to even have sex dysphoria. Its these people who are creating the problems we see now. And unfortunately, women have no way of knowing which 'trans' people are like yourself, and which are the 'choke on my ladydick bitch' ones.

morningrunner · 15/11/2017 15:06

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

badabing36 · 15/11/2017 15:17

Is anyone starting think that tm has put out the gender recognition bill in order to cause more infighting on the left. It's brilliant really, if she says she is pro self identification then the left have to agree with her or they seem like bigots. Then when people on the right express concern that's to be expected. But when people on the left express concern everyone rushes to fire them, others resign in protest and everyone calls everyone else bigots and nazis.

Makes tm et al look more 'strong and stable' than the opposition when really they're crumbling.

Everyone else in this thread has probably already realised this. Grin

Lucylu your posts have been great I agree with your stance on this issue whole heartedly.

DJBaggySmalls · 15/11/2017 15:51

badabing36 that was a Tory tactic during debates on signing the Maastricht Treaty. Labour were concerned about an influx of cheap labour from Europe putting people out of work. They were accused of being racist, it silenced them, and that how it was pushed through.
Now the Right claim cheap labour from Europe is the fault of Labour policies and Europe...

Lucylu75 · 15/11/2017 16:02

Batshite - I will try and clarify quickly but I don't want to take this off its intended track. I do understand why gendered spaces are required and agree with them. Mixed gender changing rooms and the like are a step too far for many because of many different reasons. Personally, I believe that the transsexual female and transsexual male should be able to safely use those gendered spaces for how they live their lives. I know we don't agree on that but I suppose universal agreement would be boring. As for 'gender fluid' people, I don't pretend to have any answers. I just don't know!

As for male sex offenders, their offending is not unlikely, you're right and I'm sure there are people out there who would use a mixed gender changing room to increase their scope for offending. In fact there is a sight on Facebook dedicated to finding offenders who are either trans or pretend to be trans to carry out their offenses. So it does happen you're right, It's just the few places that do seem to have them don't seem to reporting a deluge of sex offences in them. For example lots of Costas and Prets have mixed bathrooms. Maybe im totally wrong and it's under reporting, who knows? That's not to say I'm all out for mixed gender changing rooms because I'm not. I've been through a lot to be able to use a female changing room without fear. However, in my opinion the answer is not banning a transsexual female from a gendered changing room anymore than it is banning people of a certain age from driving because they statistically kill more on the roads.

Thank you though for you're welcome, it's been an eye opener and I will pop back for more from time to time.

titchy · 15/11/2017 16:10

For example lots of Costas and Prets have mixed bathrooms.

As far as I am aware (and I've visited many a Costa and Pret Blush) they are single cubicles for use by all - males, females, disabled and those needing baby change facilities. That makes them safe. Most public loos and changing rooms cater for several people using them at the same time. And that makes 5 feet nothing me, and your daughter, far more vulnerable in a female-use loo to a trans-claiming male, than it does you, presumably taller and stronger, in that gender neutral space you refuse to use.

cafeaulaitpourvous · 15/11/2017 16:16

Not wanting to start any conspiracy theories but

DH has been trying to look for any more reportings and can only find the Times and according to google the morning star . But when he clicks on the Morning Star it won’t open and says something about not being found....

Why is this being kept so quiet?

FactsAreNotMean · 15/11/2017 18:25

I understand where you are coming from Lucy, but I think that (primarily because of the TRAs) the issue is much more complex than it once was.

Women (generalising here) have been allowing transwomen to share their safe spaces for decades, but this was effectively a courtesy which women extended to a group of people who they considered to be vulnerable and felt sympathy for - people who we perceived as being so deeply unhappy with their body that they were willing to go through incredibly invasive treatment and surgery to feel happier. We were told they were at risk of abuse and harm.

But the current tumblr generation, the hoards of TRAs, AGP men and the never ending expansion of the trans umbrella means that an increasing number of women don't feel that way anymore. Actually, I'll correct that - I think most do still feel very sympathetic towards the first group, the dysphoric transsexuals for want of a better expression.

Now we're faced with rapidly increasing numbers of people who demand access to women's spaces. Large proportions of them are not dysphoric, they don't feel the deep seated revulsion towards their bodies. Some are men with a fetish, some are good old misogynists, some are confused and misguided teens, some are abusive narcissists. Many aren't on hormone treatment and have had no surgery.

The courtesy we once willingly extended to one group is now being demanded by all under the umbrella, and whilst I think many who object would still like to extend the same courtesies to the original group we no longer can; because, at this stage, how can we tell the difference? It seems virtually impossible to create rules which will clearly distinguish between the groups.

Blanchefleur · 15/11/2017 18:55

cafeaulaitpourvous

The Morning Star link is working for me www.morningstaronline.co.uk/a-0a02-Entire-CLP-leadership-quits-amid-claims-of-transphobia#.WgyJ2YhpGM8

There's a mention in Feminist Current too:
www.feministcurrent.com/2017/11/14/whats-current-labour-officials-resign-support-womens-officer-harassed-trans-activists/

Apart from that, I can't find it mentioned anywhere else either!

Beingrippedoff · 15/11/2017 22:09

lucy I was also interested to hear your opinion and appreciate you taking the time to share your thoughts. I generally agree with facts on this - the transsexual cause has been greatly harmed by the current TRAs and expansion of the trans umbrella to include gender fluid etc. It must be difficult to speak out in your situation and I hope you do come back to say more on other threads. It would be good to get back to how things were (in terms of acceptance which I think is still generally there for transsexuals like yourself) but unfortunately the can of worms has been opened and it won’t be easily closed again

ALittleBitOfButter · 15/11/2017 22:38

That's an excellent Morning Star article. What's their stance usually on trans ideology?

ALittleBitOfButter · 15/11/2017 22:47

It's all very well Lucy for you to argue we shouldn't talk about this. But you've become a parent. Who is going to stand up for young trans people to become parents if they choose? You put a lot of emphasis on passing=safety, but at what personal cost?