Men whose lives are facilitated by women - how did this happen??!

[windygallows]

Now that I'm in my mid-40s I look around at my peers and am astounded that so many men my age have their lives facilitated by women: wives who don't work or who work part time who manage the household and make lunch for their DHs and do all the childcare and prop men up. It's just amazing how many men have a leg up by this support.

And they become blind to what it's like not having that support. My boss has a female PA, two female assistants, and a wife at home who looks after the household - leaving him totally supported and completely free to focus on his job. He thinks he's responsible for his success and doesn't understand why others can't mimic what he's achieved or even the time he dedicates to work.

How did we let this happen? How did we create a situation where so many middle aged men have such a leg up over women because they've been given so much support?

I've put this in Feminism because for me this is a feminist issue. If anything this situation it creates an absolute imbalance in life but also in the workplace, with men given much more freedom to dedicate to work and devoid of many domestic responsibilities that burden women.

I've also put this in Feminism because I'm trying to avoid the usual comments by women like 'We're a team' (referring to her and her DP) or comments like 'It works for us' or 'DH works hard and makes enough for both of us - should I go out to work just because you want me to.' blah blah blah I appreciate too that some women benefit from a set up where a DP/DH is 'looking after you' when you then facilitate/prop up his life in return, but I'm not quite sure it's really helping anyone in the grand scheme of things.

For context I'm in my mid40s, single with 2DCs and work FT and definitely frustrated when I see the advantages that 'facilitated men' have in the workplace and in life.

gillybeanz I wasn't asking if my statement was 'Unreasonable'. This isn't AIBU, this is Feminist Chat!

Yes. Men carry on. Women shoulder the burden of the physical effects of pregnancy and birth (which were quite severe for me.)

There’s not much in marriage for women in a logistical sense (leaving aside the romantic whatnots) is there?

I dislike the cliche that men with SAHWs are more likely to have affairs. I have heard the a different argument from friends (both WoH and SAH): they think that the pressure of both partners WoH and seeking DHs to do a fair share the work at home will make it more likely a man will stray or leave.

At least with WoH if a man does leave, the ex W has a job and better labour market position.

I think it's slowly changing. Part of bigger change will be supporting men in moving into the currently female dominated world of childcare.

Maybe because their wives can see that it is best for the family? Maybe they even want to do it? For every man who marries a woman in the expectation of a homemaker there is a woman who marries a man in expectation of financial support?

I fell into the trap as soon as the consequences of may leave hit. Couldn't see how I could get promoted between dc1 and dc 2, so quit to look after dc1, move abroad for dh career, and generally 'for the family good'. It has been, I like my life, but it doesn't make the initial reason any better.

I'm pretty much a facilitator too. I went back p/t after first mat leave, as dp earnt a lot more and i wanted to stay at home more. After another mat leave i now feel my career is pretty much dead. Dp wants me to quit work altogether to be a sahm, as he's not happy with childcare or having to share drop offs/ carers leave etc.

In one way i feel lucky as i feel i have a good balance of 2 days work (where dp shares the load) and plenty of time with dc while they are preschool. However i do worry about the financial implications, particularly if dp were to lose his job/ we separated. I know dp is envious sometimes of my work/life balance.

I do more of the wifework, but dp does lots of jobs i dont (sorting bills, organising house repairs, diy etc), so its not too uneven. What i do resent though is that he does get more 'free' time than me, and has kept up his hobbies. I do nothing and rarely have time to myself, apart from when dc are in bed and I'm too tired. Dc2 was ebf and in retrospect its been so tying, as every night waking and bedtime falls to me (still waking x2 every night at 18 months). Dp feels this was my choice so i shouldnt complain, but never thanks me for making that sacrifice.

She’s never had a relationship since my dad, partly, I think, because she is unwilling to be less independent. It’s not as sad as it sounds but she’s 65+ and professional, no men she meets would considering making her packed lunch!

This doesn't sound sad at all! Independence is a wonderful and joyous thing!

I've been single for 10 years now, and love it!

windy

You are being feministy unreasonable then.
Some men expect all this from their wives and in the whole the wives must be happy to do it.

My point about not needing a vagina to be a PA or assistant stands though.
My dh was an engineer, not rich as some on shop floor earned more than him, including women.
He always said his best assistant was male and his best driver was a woman. he would be late 80's now, so it doesn't always show that it was so entrenched 50 years ago.

In the vast majority of relationships, the woman facilitates the man.

"YABU also because the boss's PA and assistant could equally be male, it isn't a prerequisite to have a vagina to take on those roles."

Of course the PA and the assistant could equally be male. The boss could equally be female.

Doesn't tend to work like that in real life, though.

The thing is, where does this work go to when it's not done by wives? It goes to, by and large, other women - cleaners, nannies, childminders, nursery staff, au pairs. All low-paid roles predominantly done by women. Women who in many cases will also be relying on other women looking after their children so they can get paid for looking after someone else's.

So it's not as straightforward as "going out to work is better for women", because it isn't, not all women. The issue is the (lack of) value our society places on parenting; on caring roles in general, and on children.

Sorry dad, not dh.

To me it's about sharing the roles.
Some people would presume that I did everything because I was the always the one at home.
I was responsible for ironing, cooking, cleaning, childcare, school runs, ferrying kids about etc.
From the outside I was a facilitator, but behind closed doors dh did his fair share and more. His work just meant he wasn't reliable to be responsible for stuff at home.
I rarely did a night feed when dc were babies as dh kept late nights for his work, his body clock meant/ work meant he was available at night, so I got good rest.
He has done so much DIY, gardening, maintenance, plumbing, plastering, building etc. I never touch any of this, it's down to him.

In principle I agree with the OP. However, I like working part time, I enjoy having more time for myself and with my children. I would a million times rather do what I do than what he does. I actually feel more as though he facilitated me stepping off the career ladder. I don't particularly enjoy the wifework per se, but I certainly wouldn't swap it for the work stress he has. (We are both in the same line of work and I was senior to him when we met, but I had no real ambition to progress further than that.)

Thank you OP I think it has been an excellent thread. So many people eloquently expressing the full on rants points I often make in my everyday life

I am finding it quite depressing how many women are coming on saying "this isn't a problem because my OH is great" or, even worse "you shouldn't have let your situation get like this", failing to recognise that this isn't a micro problem, happening in individual homes, it's a societal problem, holding back women in general

As I said before, not all men are sexually abusive to women. That doesn't mean that women don't need to worry about sexual abuse because it's not happening to them in their home. Not all working men are entitled facilitated arseholes. But enough women are being held back by the act of faciliitating to make it all of our problem surely

@Anatidae I completely sympathise but yes it does mean your DH passing up some opportunities and accepting he will have to compromise his career too. That’s what DH and I have both done. The system isn’t going to change until individual men start giving up a little bit of their privilege to facilitate individual women.

I would ad that the women I know who are 'high flyers' either have a huge and fairly atypical amount of support from their parents and inlaws (including free childcare) and/or are lesbians.

I've noticed that high-flying women seem to be oblivious to this overwhelmingly female support enabling their success as are men. And it rankles that they too can be impatient, unsympathetic or judgmental of under-achieving women who have no support of even have to be the support to their families /inlaws, etc.

I absolutely facilitate my husband's career (although really it's just a job - luckily for us it's a job that pays the bills and has some element of responsibilty and progression). I make his lunch occasionally because it's a kind thing to do. He facilitates my hobbies and my weekend lie ins and my hot coffee in bed every morning and my voluntary work. I am well aware we are living out patriarchal roles but we live in a patriarchal society.

Looking after my 3 DC (all under 7) is our absolute priority right now. I am fucking brilliant at it. Far better than I was at my job and far more fulfilled.

It really does work for us. We really are a team. I have a pension plan and equal access to finances.

Tbh I cannot live my life according to my ideologies at the moment. We are happy. I am happy. Don't feel bad for me - it doesn't feel like a sacrifice.

Someone needs to look after the DC. Wifework of course can be split up to a point but physically being there to supervise DCs has to be done. I facilitate it in our set up. (Predominantly) female nursery workers facilitate men and women who both WOH or are single parents. My friends who get regular childcare help from family members - it's always granny! I suppose the real question is why is this way round the default - paid or unpaid? But we all know the answer. Patriarchy and socialisation. It will take generations (if ever) for it to really change.

I agree, schnitzel

The problem is this though: him turning g down opportunities will harm him but I’m not sure it’ll make things better for me. It might make one or two evenings a week better for me but it’s not going to put me in a position where my career can match his, iyswim. The negative effects on him would far outweigh the positives for me. Only him stepping into an equivalent mummy track type role would equal us out and only him stepping off even more than that would allow me to get as ahead as he is.

And that I think is the dilemma - he’s doing great and that is good for the family unit. If I stop him doing so well so that I can get ahead, he suffers and the family unit suffers with no guarantee that I will achieve an equivalent level It’s like doing ‘the family unit’ damage to make a point. It absolutely shouldn’t be like that but it is.

And this is two educated, equal professionals committed to doing things as equally as possible where we can. It’s been much harder than I thought to kick against the externalities of our situation.

My dh’s boss has a stay at home wife and older children and just doesn’t understand why my dh should have to share parental and household responsibilities that prevent him working late every night or golfing with clients 🙄
He’s always astounded that I can’t just drop my work commitments to take care of all our family needs freeing up dh to be at his beck and call. It’s frustrating for both of us.

Oh god, I’m going to sound like a bit of a knob, but here goes. About a year ago, I got the most astonishing opportunity at work. For about 7 months I was out of the house all hours, working weekends, and very absorbed in work. When we had family time, we spent it doing fun things. I don’t think I put on more than three loads of washing in all that time, or cooked more than a handful of meals. And when it was over, I remember giving DS a bath and not being able to remember when i’d last done it.

And my DH stepped up. Yeah we got a cleaner, because he was working full time too, but he took on all the thinking and planning for the house and children. He did lunchboxes and homework and the supermarket shop and ironing and booking holiday childcare.

He did it because he was so thrilled for me that I had the opportunity to do the work thing. He really wanted me to do it and was happy to be the facilitator. And I am so enormously grateful to him. It was transformational to be able to take up the opportunity and concentrate on it fully.

I just wanted to say that it CAN happen - men can and do step up and support their wives. My DH is obviously very special to me, but otherwise not extraordinary.

I don't see this as a male/female problem though, more of an individual.
If you have dc and both want to work then of course neither of you can reach the dizzy heights of super career.

In the case of museumum dh, he shouldn't have a role that means he has to entertain clients if he is unable due to family commitments.

it's up to the couple to sort out their roles and responsibilities not the boss, I'm not surprised the boss is this way and don't think it's necessarily w woman /man thing.

Treats of course there are lots of men out there like your OH. Mine for example.

But you must recognise how rare that is. And you having one great OH doesn't solve the problem that women in society have in general
I put "in general" in bold so that people understand that I do know there are lots of great men out there!

The thing is I actually feel as though women are their own worst enemies.

Men aren’t going to fight our battles for us. They aren’t going to overcome our barriers.

As someone said upthread, we wanted to have it all but have instead ended up doing it all.

The amount of times women are quick to shit all over each other (as if men don’t do that enough already).

Women change their names, criticise each other on parenting, appearance, housekeeping, in competition to be a ‘cool wife’.

Ffs do you think men go on online forums and give each other tips on batch cooking at weekends, how to clean the toilet whilst cooking a roast and holding the baby. We do that to ourselves.