Men whose lives are facilitated by women - how did this happen??!

[windygallows]

Now that I'm in my mid-40s I look around at my peers and am astounded that so many men my age have their lives facilitated by women: wives who don't work or who work part time who manage the household and make lunch for their DHs and do all the childcare and prop men up. It's just amazing how many men have a leg up by this support.

And they become blind to what it's like not having that support. My boss has a female PA, two female assistants, and a wife at home who looks after the household - leaving him totally supported and completely free to focus on his job. He thinks he's responsible for his success and doesn't understand why others can't mimic what he's achieved or even the time he dedicates to work.

How did we let this happen? How did we create a situation where so many middle aged men have such a leg up over women because they've been given so much support?

I've put this in Feminism because for me this is a feminist issue. If anything this situation it creates an absolute imbalance in life but also in the workplace, with men given much more freedom to dedicate to work and devoid of many domestic responsibilities that burden women.

I've also put this in Feminism because I'm trying to avoid the usual comments by women like 'We're a team' (referring to her and her DP) or comments like 'It works for us' or 'DH works hard and makes enough for both of us - should I go out to work just because you want me to.' blah blah blah I appreciate too that some women benefit from a set up where a DP/DH is 'looking after you' when you then facilitate/prop up his life in return, but I'm not quite sure it's really helping anyone in the grand scheme of things.

For context I'm in my mid40s, single with 2DCs and work FT and definitely frustrated when I see the advantages that 'facilitated men' have in the workplace and in life.

...in every school mine have been in ... I have made friends with other women and part of that friendship has been sussing out who you can pair with for mutual support etc....We'd build up a bank of mutual favours and reliability and support. Then I'd have to go away for work or Julie who doesn't work outside the home would go visit her parents and we'd both tell our husbands that they didn't need to worry about the school lift because we had it organised with the other. Basically we'd pay into the bank of favours and our husbands would draw out of it

This made me . Recently my CF ex phoned me up to ask for the phone number of the mothers of DSs friends. Not by name of course, because he doesn’t know them. Just “ Bens mum”.

Maybe he wanted to arrange a play Date for DS at his own house ? No of course not. He wanted to bug out of his share of childcare and thought he could just call them up these women and they would do it for him.

Because I’ve spent six years paying into that bank, he thought he could withdraw it.

No you can complain oleanna

Your husbands fabulous existence is facilitated by your effort. What do you get out of it?

I find life abroad hard. I desperately miss the feeling of being at home in a culture. I’m developing serious social phobia because I feel like I no longer know the rules of social interactions and put my foot in it too much, and I cannot get to grips with the language. This is a cold, dull, unfriendly country and while I’m grateful for some things I feel like I’m slowly dying here. Dh (like all swedes I’ve found) takes any hint of me being unhappy as a personal criticism of him and his culture

Because I’ve spent six years paying into that bank, he thought he could withdraw it.

That's pure theft that is :)

I've got the best sun tan I've ever had Anatidae I am glad not to be somewhere cold and dark

We have made some great friends here, so at least or social life is good (though inevitably DH also seems to eat out with customers in those fabulous restaurants that are very unchild friendly). I find being "the foreigner" incredibly liberating: I care far less about birthday party etiquette and stuff like that now I am able to shrug it off with "oh, that's not I'm used to doing it like that"

And in theory I have lots of time to pursue my dreams

That horrible Asda advert illustrates my point exactly that nobody will think about the mother, so she must make sure she thinks of herself. I couldn’t believe the closing line, so depressing and it is 2017! Women do better at school and university etc, until they have children and then it all comes crashing down.

Le Croissant I get exactly what you mean about feeling like myself again, like an actual person since I started asserting my needs and wants. I get more respect from the OH who suddenly started to notice he is having a homemade meal and thanks me at the end of it. The children started to show more respect, too, since they started doing more round the house, like vacuuming, putting their toys and other stuff away, setting and clearing the table. Admittedly, they are older now and can do that. But still, don’t be that woman in the Asda advert, demand respect for what you do and treat yourself with love. Somehow, others then also start treating you better.

JustWondering to be fair the Asda advert was 2013 and went down like a shit sandwich, almost universally ridiculed. But yeah, it's endemic and Christmas is no exception, from the toys we buy our children to the gifts we get bought ourselves (oven gloves from MIL anyone? "Humourous" apron? Vacuum cleaner?!) to the bloke carving the turkey and getting the glory (I like to think of it as Winter's Barbeque for this reason). We even shop and wrap presents and let a non existent entity get the credit! Bah humbug.

Even better you let a non existent male entity get the credit

," they allow women to have children and then they accommodate them, inconvenient as that is"

So why on earth do so many of these men seem to hate childfree by choice women.

I don't think I've ever met a man who hates child free-women by choice - or any woman for that matter. Maybe I've been lucky?

was at my desk, under time pressure, sitting next to my (single male senior) boss trying to get documents out before close of business not thinking about the document but "unless I leave now I won't make after school club, I will need to text friend 1 to pick up DD2, I will need to text the lift share to brownies saying I will pick up rather than take, does DD1 have her key, I won't have time to get bread for breakfast tomorrow etc etc". He will sit there thinking of the work in hand

This is it exactly and why I can't do my job properly as I have to rush off frantically shoving papers in a bag to carry on at home. Burning in the car and screeching up to get kids; flustered.
DH thinks as he works longer hours that he has it tougher. It must be great to only focus on work, to leave when you want, to complete that piece of work. Yet DH always feels jealous that I finish earlier and when he gets home around 7 everything's done - thats because when I get in I don't stop either. Our days are the same length - the difference is I'm holding dow multiple, competing jobs, none of them done well. It's just depressing

I think I’m with Germaine Greer on this one - the depth of hatred by men generally towards women is staggering

An awful lot of them (by no means all, but it’s not a small minority) really do hate women.

God I'm boycotting Asda. That ad is vile.
I note that 'Mum' is immaculate too because amid all that she's found time to look perfect.

Reading this I feel quite lucky that DH does the second shift twice a week ( and that's not quite right either is it ? 2/5 is still less than 50% and I am the higher earner...) however on Monday I did walk through the door at 7:10 to dinner and done homework-which is nice. Last night was my frazzled night getting in at 5:50 and getting dinner done for 7:30 when DH came in, but at least we take turns.

I don’t like being a sahm. It doesn’t sit right with me. I don’t get any real satisfaction from cleaning the house or making everyday food and although I enjoy spending time with my children I have no qualms about using childcare. I don’t know. We don’t need the money but I don’t want to be relying on my dh for the foreseeable just because I had some time out of the workplace. But as it’s not a case of keeping the wolf from the door, putting the whole family through the stress of me working full time and perhaps barely covering the costs as I start something new seems like a shitty thing to do, and I’m sure if everyone is stressed about that it probably won’t feel any better to me. I’m very conflicted and don’t know what’s best, everyone else is happy enough and apart from erratic working hours that don’t facilitate picking up kids my dh pulls his weight at life work, even though I currently sah and he earns well :)

“We don’t need the money” as long as you stay together and DH doesn’t get sick.

But can understand your dilemma.

I was really lucky to have a well paid job before DC. Much harder to WoH if (both partners’) earnings don’t or onlt just cover childcare costs. In work though there is better chance of progression and you’re building up pension etc - short term pain for medium/long term gain.

I will not take the financial / labour market risks of time out, especially when DH wouldn’t dream of doing so and wouldn’t even go PT.

Well exactly Dozer. I was the higher earner til I had dc1 and was demoted on mat leave 1 and then worked pt whilst retraining for something else until I was on mat leave with dc2 and was made redundant. I did not choose to be a sahm based on my preferences, it’s a path I’ve come to. And yes, I could start again at the bottom in a new career but someone has to pick up at 5.30 and dh can’t, which means I’ll struggle to put in the hours to move up in a new job. It’s infuriating. Dh isn’t facilitated really (apart from being able to work when he needs to most of the time) because my job wasn’t flexible but available childcare then was longer so it didn’t impact too much. He will need facilitating to move up as it currently involves lots of pointless travel and boozy evenings though he is trying to change that as it is not an inclusive way of working. At the moment he’s happy spending time with his kids and me but if I struggle to get back in the workplace in the future he may feel he has to do the hours in order to support us all. And then we’ll perpetuate the man working all hours in his Very Important Job whilst wifey sah facilitating it all model even though it was never what we wanted and I will go quietly insane.

So why on earth do so many of these men seem to hate childfree by choice women.

Because they are free to compete with them / disrupt the cosy boys club - they are more of a threat.

krabby

Your situation is one I’m sure an awful lot of women will relate to - even if it’s not a conscious choice, it’s something that you just fall into. Because that’s how the world is structured :(

This thread is so interesting. It's really got me thinking. The thing is, despite only marginal financial gain in the short term I do see the benefit of WOH (pensions, career prospects etc) IF (and it's a very big if) I thought my health wouldn't suffer. But I think it would (post birth problems not yet resolved). The extra stress - given I wouldn't earn enough to outsource cleaning, cooking etc - would really tip me over the edge I think (already on the edge due to non sleeping baby!). Now, a big part of that is commuting 2+ hours a days. If a recent job offer had given me the option of working from home I might have done it. I asked and they said no, but really it's a job you could quite easily do from home with teleconferencing / skype and travel to meetings. My last job before DD1 I worked from home quite a lot, and usually got more done at home.

Of course having located myself close to DHs job, the number of opportunities in my field within a reasonable commute is limited.

It makes me wonder if there are any hands on unfacilitated parents in senior government policy making positions. I worked in government in my 20s and the area I worked in was very male dominated. One senior female who was childless. The pay wasn't good enough for a nanny, or even to afford to live close to work (London). We know that there aren't enough female MPs, and they're paid at least fairly well. In the whole structure of civil servants behind them, I wonder how many are unfacilitated parents?

'The extra stress - given I wouldn't earn enough to outsource cleaning, cooking etc - would really tip me over the edge I think (already on the edge due to non sleeping baby!). Now, a big part of that is commuting 2+ hours a days. If a recent job offer had given me the option of working from home I might have done it. I asked and they said no, but really it's a job you could quite easily do from home with teleconferencing / skype and travel to meetings. '

So the cooking and cleaning is all your job? Or your job to pay to outsource it?

I think a lot of the reason employers say no to 'work from home' to people with young children is that they think the person's asking to do it to avoid paying childcare and will instead of working will use the time to look after their children.

'Of course having located myself close to DHs job, the number of opportunities in my field within a reasonable commute is limited. '

You facilitated him and you continue to do so.

Yes, I have facilitated him in his career, no argument - he would agree. That has included moving several times. He has facilitated our family having enough money to live on. No, the cleaning and cooking is a shared task, but there will be the same amount of that to do whether or not I work. We would both pay for childcare, etc, but the fact is if I worked and paid to commute, and we paid for a cleaner, we would have less money spare at the end of the month in our joint account thanbwe do without me working. Since we are already occasionally struggling to break even I don't think doing that would be financially wise.

Another way of looking at it is that the job I was offered is not enough to support a single parent with one child under 3 in this location (high housing costs).

I totally sympathise cuppa it’s an easy situation to find yourself in an a hard one to change.

Let me play devils advocate for a moment (absolutely none of this is criticising you or your choices!)

He doesn’t earn enough to outsource the domestic stuff. OK, well then I would argue that he doesn’t earn enough to make it worthwhile doing all the schlepping around. Being a trailing spouse is only ok if there’s a reasonable financial incentive. I know expat contracts are no longer gold plated like they used to be but there needs to be some payoff for you.

You’d not have much left over: again, then the logical thing would be for you to get a job and work up. If he’s not earning enough to provide a cleaner and a cushion then is it worth it?

He is reaping the benefits and you’re not. You neither have enough money to pay to have free time, nor career opportunities. He is getting everything on a plate - what are you getting?

Again, must say these are not criticisms of you - they are mainly thoughts I’ve had because I think I may be facing this choice in the next few years and it’s made me think: under what conditions would I be ok giving up my career and the security and money it gives me to be a trailing spouse?

Ineedacupoftea, it is a crazy situation, isn’t it, when you have more family money with only one of you WOH. I discovered that. Less stress and more money. Our money is and has always been joint going into the same account, so I still treat it as family income. When I worked FT, we had to pay for petrol for me, smart office clothes/ shoes, takeaways/ready made meals several times a week or eating out because I didn’t have the energy to cook (DH does not care about food, so happy whichever). I was so stressed I felt I needed to ‘reward’ myself and spent money on treats more, we had to pay for childcare etc etc

Now I am at home, I have got the headspace to organise good living for everyone, healthy meals every day, full fridge, don’t need so many treats as I treat myself going to the gym and doing what I want in the day. We don’t pay for childcare AT ALL for our three children. I have time to research stuff and get better deals. Etc etc etc there’s so much where we save by me concentrating on home side of things. It’s unbelievable.

There is no doubt, if thinking about our household as a unit rather than me separate, DH separate and the kids in between to be divided cost wise and time wise, we are unquestionably better off financially with the current set up.

This does not take away my wasted human capital though, and my vulnerable position as an individual