UK transgender murder rate

[pisacake]

According to this source transrespect.org/en/map/trans-murder-monitoring/, 8 transgender people have been murdered in the UK since 2008

Their list (taken from various PDFs on their site):

2015
Vikki Thompson - not murder but accidental death, initially reported as suicide www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2017/may/19/jury-returns-verdict-on-transgender-woman-found-dead-in-male-prison

Vanessa Santillan - killed by husband because of sex work www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-london-34591733

2013
Jacqueline Cowdrey - found NOT to have been murdered www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-sussex-26145984

2012
Chrissie Azzopardi - killed over drug debts www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2013/oct/18/chrissie-azzopardi-murder-life-sentence

2011
Lionel/Suzie Morl - described as transvestite, murdered by two Big Issue sellers (male & female) to live off his disability benefits www.manchestereveningnews.co.uk/news/greater-manchester-news/guilty-couple-who-killed-transvestite-689598

2010
Sonia/David Burgess gender fluid lawyer killed by a gender fluid/trans client www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-london-16305570

2009
Andrea Waddell
www.getreading.co.uk/news/local-news/andrea-waddell-strangled-client-4226743 - sex worker killed by customer. Customer claimed not to know Waddell was transsexual. "During the trial, jurors were asked to consider whether McMillan killed her after discovering she was transgender, or because she was unable to perform sexually for him because of physical ailments after illnesses including fibromyalgia."

Destiny Lauren sex worker - killed by customer www.islingtongazette.co.uk/news/life-sentence-for-killer-of-transsexual-prostitute-destiny-lauren-1-680308 Customer had previously sought the services of transsexual prostitutes going by the names of "Fransexual" and "VickisDomain"

So in summary, not 8 murders but 6, of which:

3 were sex workers killed because of their sex work
2 were killed for financial reasons
1 was killed by another transgender person

"A total of 152 UK sex workers have been murdered since 1990. According to the charity National Ugly Mugs, 85% of street prostitutes have experienced violence and only 25% of victims are willing to report crimes to the police."

news.sky.com/story/sex-workers-still-vulnerable-10-years-after-ipswich-murders-10679614

There were around 571 homicides in the last year in England & Wales, that's approximately 1 per 100,000 people.

Thus over the 9 years 2008 to 2016, given six homicides, that implies a transgender murder rate of 0.67 per year, assuming transgender people are as likely to be killed as the rest of the country. That would suggest that there are only 67,000 transgender people in England & Wales.

However, the LOWEST estimate for transgender people is 0.1% (so around 57,000), and GIRES says it is 0.2% at the very minimum (so around 114,000).

Obviously given the tiny numbers you can't be too specific with these statistics, we aren't taking about a population (of murdered trans people) so much as vanishingly rare cases.

With regard to sex work, there are apparently around 72,800 sex workers in the UK of which 4% (approx 2900 are transgender). en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prostitution_in_the_United_Kingdom#Extent

Given the overall sex worker murder rate of ~6 per year, that implies 1 in every 12,000 sex workers will be murdered in any given year. Therefore given the 2900*9 = 26,100 transgender sex worker years in the period under study, we'd expect 26100/12000 = 2.175 murders of transgender sex workers. The total of 3 is very slightly above average in that respect, however statistically it's not even remotely significant (5 would be significant at the 95% confidence interval). I am not 100% clear if the case of Vanessa Santillan is included within the figures, as Santillan was murdered not by a client, but a jealous husband.

Also note that in general 1 in 780 people are sex workers (and sex workers have a homicide rate 8 times higher than the general population) but as many as 1 in 20 transgender people may be sex workers, so there will be a higher rate of murder.

Moreover, all of the murders were biologically male (and indeed most transgender people are male). The male murder rate is around 75% higher than the female murder rate in the country as a whole.

[sagamartha]

And from that:

Between 2009 and 2015, 936 women were killed by men, the census found. Of these, 598 (64%) were killed by their current or former partners and 75 (8%) by their sons

I knew that the percentage of women killed by their current or former partner was high but I didn't realise that being killed by their son was 8%. That's shocking.

[nauticant]

If TRAs want to run the argument that being a trans person carries a significantly higher murder risk they're going to have to have an estimate of the number of people who are trans to be very low or they're going to have to have an estimate of the number of trans people who are murdered to be much higher.

For the first, the 0.1% used above (60,000 people), this would mean 1 in 1000 people are trans. I can't see such a low proportion being acceptable to TRAs. If "very few trans people" isn't the trick used, then the number of trans people who are murdered will need to be made much higher.

That's if they were making any kind of effort. Instead, it's far easier to put out a blizzard of bogus statistics to make it difficult for anyone to determine with confidence what can be said.

One key in this is making sure that the definition of trans person is as obscure as possible so that sometimes there can be many many trans people and other times very few.

[JessicaEccles]

I was reading somewhere else that the rate of homicide for young black males in America was so high- it was actually SAFER statistically to be a black transsexual

[Ereshkigal]

It's safer statistically to be black MTF transgender than a black non trans man and hugely safer to be a white MTF trans person than to be a black man, a white man, or a woman.

[Ereshkigal]

Arguably the correct control group (for trans women) would be men, because this allows you to answer the question of whether transitioning make you less safe than you would have been otherwise

Yes. Exactly.

[OlennasWimple]

The numbers and lack of reliable data about the size of the transgender population are surely too small to draw conclusions one way or another about the transgender murder rate? But although each case is a tragedy, the actual numbers don't support any argument that trans people are being murdered left, right and centre (in the UK at least)

I have the TRA argument set out slightly differently, however, about the risk of violence, not necessarily murder. But no clear stats back up this proposition either. Similarly, the "if you don't support them, they will die" argument is usually made in relation to the risk of suicide. But again, I haven't seen any stats that show that trans teens are at a higher risk of suicide than non-trans teens, particularly taking into account wider relevant factors.

It's all a case of lies, damn lies and statistics

[nauticant]

the risk of violence, not necessarily murder

Where violence can be someone believing a person with a penis is a man meaning that the definition of violence is also meaningless.

That is, woman is to be a meaningless term, trans person is to be a meaningless term, and, in the trans context, violence is to be a meaningless term.

The most effective tool in removing boundaries is to render definitions of key terms meaningless.

[pisacake]

As if on cue:

www.rotherhamadvertiser.co.uk/news/view,event-in-rotherham-to-highlight-transgender-hate-crime_24477.htm

"The event aims to remember people who have died due to transphobia or transgender hate crime."

So that would be er, um, er, yes well, it's the thought that counts isn't it?

If we THINK that there are people who have died due transphobia then we can hold a day of remembrance about it, and if we repeat it often enough, then people might believe that it's actually true, so we can pursue our agenda.

[SonicBoomBoom]

If you don't laugh, you'd cry.

[OlennasWimple]

Rotherham.

Right, quick Google search

16 year old woman murdered in Rotherham this year

58 year old woman murdered in her home in Rotherham last year

Madeleine Humes was murdered by her husband in 2002. He was found guilty but only received a sentence of 7 years because she was deemed to have "provoked him" by telling him that she was leaving the marriage.

Further back, there were a number of grisly crimes committed in Rotherham particularly targetting women and girls

One of the UK's oldest unsolved murders is a 13 year old Rotherham girl who was raped and murdered in 1964

This is without getting into the more recent grooming gang stuff (predominantly targetting vulnerable girls and young women) and spending less than 5 minutes searching "woman murder Rotherham"

But yeah, let's have a trans murder remembrance day in fucking Rotherham

[Ereshkigal]

I know, Olenna. So ridiculous. But of course women have nothing to worry about ever. It's all about the poor oppressed male people.

[Ereshkigal]

I remember that Madeleine Hume case and wrote about it a lot on another forum I was on. The details are horrific. But they didn't even try to get a murder conviction.

[Ereshkigal]

Just googled and the fucker was released after serving three years

[ferntwist]

This is outrageous. Can we lobby the council? Get in touch with the local paper? Anyone live in the area?

[pisacake]

Slightly related but there's

'Support your daughter or bury your son' today

www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/support-your-transgender-daughter-son-11504685?service=responsive

This is based on propaganda from Stonewall, which claims that if you don't trans your child they will kill themself.

Different principle, but same invocation of violent death to achieve an end.

Obviously these are also fake stats www.transgendertrend.com/stonewall-school-report-what-does-suicide-rate-mean/ and don't distinguish between biological male and females in terms of suicide, and moreover they imply that it is 'safer' to be a gay boy than a transgirl.

[C8H10N4O2]

I initially posted this separately as it is not UK specific info but on reflection I agree with poster who suggested it may be more useful here:

I've seen a few questions looking for reliable stats on this topic. I've struggled to find good data, especially data which breaks down victims by demographic for meaningful cross comparison.

This article has some more sources and is one of few I've seen trying to break the data down. There are also comments refuting/adding to the interpretation.

medium.com/athena-talks/trans-murder-rates-the-data-120b60b19cb4

[ArcheryAnnie]

New website (don't know who is behind it, but thank you, whoever it is) documenting crimes committed by trans-identifying males, but reported as being committed by women:

transcrimeuk.com/

[pisacake]

And here it is.

www.independent.co.uk/voices/transgender-rights-attack-in-media-times-article-topshop-changing-day-of-remembrance-a8058676.html

"The constant attack on transgender people is costing us our lives"

"In a few days trans people will meet all around the UK for Transgender Day of Remembrance, when we honour the lives of those who have been murdered simply for being who they are. "

"Like many trans people in the UK today, we’re growing tired of debating our existence. Despite support from various institutions such as the NHS and more recently the Church of England, many of the biggest media platforms in the UK seem willing to fuel misconceptions and hatred towards the trans community."

So basically

Lie 1: transgender people are being killed in disproportionate numbers
Lie 2: TERFs are fuelling this killing spree

(the author is 'Fox and Owl' a pair of super-special snowflakes, 'Fox' is a transman, and 'Owl' is a transwoman')

They continue:

"Organisations such as Mermaids are under constant attack, but they offering vital services to trans children and their families. They have been targets of smear campaigns and their services and work discredited."

Under attack as in being told by a court of law to cease and desist? In other news I am under attack every time I go out in my car the bastard police pull me over every time (ok I did 120mph on the M1 and got banned, but that's just a hateful smear campaign). How very dare they.

"Yet transphobia is right in front of us, every single day. Every time we go to the shop we see fear mongering articles. But what we don’t focus on is the actual reality we face. Another trans woman killed; a trans woman found dead in a men’s prison; a 15 year-old-trans kid committing suicide."

A black trans-identified man shot by the police after assaulting them with a knife. Sad but not really unpredictable. A violent murderer topping themselves in prison. Sorry, not sorry. A teenage girl killed herself, very sad, but hardly unique and the story - she transed but stayed at her girls' school, and the trans lobby (inevitably) blamed it on the school not validating her name change. Hundreds of teenagers kill themselves every year, being a teenager is stressful.

But how about the actual women being killed every fucking day?
Literally today:

"A man has been arrested on suspicion of murder over the death of teenager Gaia Pope, hours after women’s clothing was discovered in a field."

Also today, in Leeds Crown court:

'SLAUGHTERED BY HUSBAND' Mum-of-four Sinead Wooding ‘murdered by husband after she defied his demands to stop seeing her family and friends’

Yesterday

"Julie Feetham, 52, died in hospital yesterday after police were called to a property in Thurston Road on Monday after reports she had sustained serious injuries.

The 55 year old man, arrested on suspicion of grievous bodily harm, has been released on police bail until Thursday, November 23."

Any news on the 'female day of remembrance'? Or does a transgender person in America count more than a woman in Britain?

[ALittleBitOfButter]

To be fair though, women often tell MRA to organise their own pro-men stuff. I have no problem with trans memorial day. They organised it.

[ArcheryAnnie]

If "Fox" is Fox Fisher, that's the homophobe who described gay people as "deviant" in a Mermaids vlog. It's a bit sad really.

[pisacake]

Yes it does appear to be. twitter.com/theFoxFisher/status/931189172391628800 No idea why these fucks think they are so special they only need one name. I mean 'Fox Fisher' is one thing, but noooooo it has to be 'Fox'. Owl is aka 'Ugla Stefanía Kristjönudóttir Jónsdóttir' or just 'Ugla Stefanía'

[Rachel40s]

Hi everyone!
I was searching for Trans murder rates in the UK (in order to compare and discuss with someone in the US). Found this excellent thread with well-referenced stats.

First off - for complete disclosure - I'm MtF Transsexual, but I perhaps have somewhat different views to much of the "trans community". I (and actually every other transsexual person I know) parted ways with that community and its trans-lobby a long time ago. There are likely to be things that we're not necessarily going to agree upon here, but that's fine. However, most of what's been written in this thread is (to my mind) balanced and well researched. Just to add, I hold an Engineering Degree so I'm pretty au fait with maths and stats!

Right - my points:
I think the umbrella term "Transgender" has been spread too far. To include blokes who occasionally cross-dress, prisoners who decide to change "whatever" and the case of a "Husband and father-of-seven, 52, leaves his wife and kids to live as a transgender SIX-YEAR-OLD girl named Stefonknee" [seriously - Google it. Actually - don't; it's sickening] in the same category as those who have undergone years of scientific, medical assessment by medically qualified doctors who are specialists in their fields in order to receive a proper diagnosis and successful treatment is surely just wrong on so many levels. There must be some distinction between men's fetishes and the medical condition of Transsexualism (which is nowadays quite an old-fashioned term, but I prefer it as it offers at least some disambiguation). This is important because while I wish everyone well with whatever path they wish to take through life (you can "identify" as a penguin for all I care - walk funny; eat fish and everything), if you want (nay - demand) "rights" associated with your assertions, they must surely have some basis in science, medicine and biology and be verifiable by current approved medical thinking. Self-identifying and automatically gaining rights and access to segregated spaces and being able to change your own legal documents is (in my opinion) fundamentally wrong. I have my opinions on what the rules should be and we may come to that if discussion warrants it. Using erroneous statistics to back up demands and attempt to influence policy (and even Law) is just as wrong.

There are a lot of us who have fully and successfully gone through an approved medical process to correct something that was wrong with the way we were born and now live successful lives. In my experience, we are not the ones demanding a lot of the frankly ridiculous things the current "trans-lobby" seem to be after. Trouble is, we tend not to speak out against it either, and I think maybe we should. I think we are just as worried about getting slated/threatened/abused for offering common-sense suggestions. As far as I can tell, we are not the ones committing these crimes nor perpetuating typical male violence, either (there may be some who do, but there are some natal-females who exhibit typically male violence, too).

"Transgender" allows men to be men, yet still gain rights and access to protected women-only spaces. The stats and links presented here pretty much prove that. That's fundamentally wrong.

Anyway - just my two-penneth worth.

R.

[Sunkisses]

Thanks for doing this excellent research. It's Trans Day of Remembrance tomorrow and there will be a 'service' type thing outside of the V&A. It bugs the hell out of me too, when two women a week are murdered by their partners that trans people claim to be the most harmed people

[Sunkisses]

Does anyone know if any trans people have been murdered in the UK in 2017? I know there weren't any in 2016, and I haven't heard of any in 2017. Trans activists should be campaigning against the sex trade if they are concerned about trans murder rates

[ferntwist]

Rachel thank you so much for joining the thread. It's very interesting to hear your experience. I can imagine that transsexual people like you who have been through surgery and more would be horrified at the new proposals for self-identification, as it devalues your hard-won status.