Feminism: Sex & gender discussions
UK transgender murder rate
pisacake · 07/11/2017 13:58
According to this source transrespect.org/en/map/trans-murder-monitoring/, 8 transgender people have been murdered in the UK since 2008
Their list (taken from various PDFs on their site):
Vikki Thompson - not murder but accidental death, initially reported as suicide www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2017/may/19/jury-returns-verdict-on-transgender-woman-found-dead-in-male-prison
Vanessa Santillan - killed by husband because of sex work www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-london-34591733
Jacqueline Cowdrey - found NOT to have been murdered www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-sussex-26145984
Chrissie Azzopardi - killed over drug debts www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2013/oct/18/chrissie-azzopardi-murder-life-sentence
Lionel/Suzie Morl - described as transvestite, murdered by two Big Issue sellers (male & female) to live off his disability benefits www.manchestereveningnews.co.uk/news/greater-manchester-news/guilty-couple-who-killed-transvestite-689598
Sonia/David Burgess gender fluid lawyer killed by a gender fluid/trans client www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-london-16305570
www.getreading.co.uk/news/local-news/andrea-waddell-strangled-client-4226743 - sex worker killed by customer. Customer claimed not to know Waddell was transsexual. "During the trial, jurors were asked to consider whether McMillan killed her after discovering she was transgender, or because she was unable to perform sexually for him because of physical ailments after illnesses including fibromyalgia."
Destiny Lauren sex worker - killed by customer www.islingtongazette.co.uk/news/life-sentence-for-killer-of-transsexual-prostitute-destiny-lauren-1-680308 Customer had previously sought the services of transsexual prostitutes going by the names of "Fransexual" and "VickisDomain"
So in summary, not 8 murders but 6, of which:
3 were sex workers killed because of their sex work
2 were killed for financial reasons
1 was killed by another transgender person
"A total of 152 UK sex workers have been murdered since 1990. According to the charity National Ugly Mugs, 85% of street prostitutes have experienced violence and only 25% of victims are willing to report crimes to the police."
There were around 571 homicides in the last year in England & Wales, that's approximately 1 per 100,000 people.
Thus over the 9 years 2008 to 2016, given six homicides, that implies a transgender murder rate of 0.67 per year, assuming transgender people are as likely to be killed as the rest of the country. That would suggest that there are only 67,000 transgender people in England & Wales.
However, the LOWEST estimate for transgender people is 0.1% (so around 57,000), and GIRES says it is 0.2% at the very minimum (so around 114,000).
Obviously given the tiny numbers you can't be too specific with these statistics, we aren't taking about a population (of murdered trans people) so much as vanishingly rare cases.
With regard to sex work, there are apparently around 72,800 sex workers in the UK of which 4% (approx 2900 are transgender). en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prostitution_in_the_United_Kingdom#Extent
Given the overall sex worker murder rate of ~6 per year, that implies 1 in every 12,000 sex workers will be murdered in any given year. Therefore given the 2900*9 = 26,100 transgender sex worker years in the period under study, we'd expect 26100/12000 = 2.175 murders of transgender sex workers. The total of 3 is very slightly above average in that respect, however statistically it's not even remotely significant (5 would be significant at the 95% confidence interval). I am not 100% clear if the case of Vanessa Santillan is included within the figures, as Santillan was murdered not by a client, but a jealous husband.
Also note that in general 1 in 780 people are sex workers (and sex workers have a homicide rate 8 times higher than the general population) but as many as 1 in 20 transgender people may be sex workers, so there will be a higher rate of murder.
Moreover, all of the murders were biologically male (and indeed most transgender people are male). The male murder rate is around 75% higher than the female murder rate in the country as a whole.
BatShite · 08/11/2017 03:05
Debunks the arguments about letting men into women's spaces entirely.
That argument debunks itself really with a very slight amount of thinking. Males are scared of males in male areas due to male violence. Solution, add males to female areas. What help does that do the original males who were scared of males? It does nothing to help the males who are scared of other males. It simply makes females unsafe also.
sagamartha · 08/11/2017 07:13
Debunks the arguments about letting men into women's spaces entirely
Does her analysis of statistics show anything about assaults on transwomen by men?
Murder is very rare. Assaults are different.
Her analysis doesn't show anything about assaults on transwomen by men.
It doesn't show anything about any assaults on transwomen by men in male areas.
So I am not sure how her analysis debunks the argument about letting transwomen into female areas?
Can you explain how you believe her analysis of trans murder rates debunks this argument?
FizzyWaterAndElderflower · 08/11/2017 07:35
On the population of Scotland that figure would mean almost 6,500 people. Figures I found were around 3,000.
Which would match with my suspicion that it's 1 in 740 women, not people.
sagamartha · 08/11/2017 07:41
I was also wondering if you've compared the murder rate of transwomen to the murder rate of women?
If you've said there are 60,000 trans people in the UK, then what fraction of those are transwomen?
It's very easy to pick your analysis of trans murder rates to the population apart - in EXACTLY the same way is it to pick trans activists analysis apart in similar ways.
annandale · 08/11/2017 07:46
Very interesting thread. I would never say, however, that anyone was murdered 'because of sex work'.
Ereshkigal · 08/11/2017 09:22
I was also wondering if you've compared the murder rate of transwomen to the murder rate of women?
Why would you do that? Males are more likely to be both perpetrators and victims of murder. So it's a false comparison.
BigDeskBob · 08/11/2017 09:50
"I was also wondering if you've compared the murder rate of transwomen to the murder rate of women?"
The numbers are freely available, if you want to do the analysis.
vesuvia · 08/11/2017 10:00
sagamartha wrote - "if the dates were different, you could write the opposite statement"
Where is your evidence that the opposite could be true if the dates were different?
I think you are just assuming or hoping that the opposite could be true.
WhatWouldGenghisDo · 08/11/2017 10:25
Arguably the correct control group (for trans women) would be men, because this allows you to answer the question of whether transitioning make you less safe than you would have been otherwise
WhatWouldGenghisDo · 08/11/2017 10:44
The outcomes for 4 years are similar to those for 9. There were roughly 2000 homicide victims in the general population. If trans people had the same risk we would expect 4 trans victims (based on 0.2% population estimate) or 2 victims (based on 0.1% estimate). The observed figure was 3.
Assuming the former, the risk to trans people wasn't increased. Assuming the latter, it may have been, but there aren't grounds for making that claim based on these data because a difference this size would be likely to arise by chance alone (it's less likely than in the 9 years version but still likely)
I agree this only relates to actual homicide and tells us nothing about assaults or intimidation. But if I was a trans person I'd find it encouraging
sagamartha · 08/11/2017 12:47
I think anyone should find it encouraging regardless of status. The risk of being murdered in the uk is very low for anyone. Sadly there are factors that increase that risk such as sex work and if you are linked in a relationship or previous one to someone who has a history of domestic violence.
thebewilderness · 08/11/2017 17:13
Thank you for this, pisa. The trans identified males are12 times more likely to be murdered in the US myth was debunked statistically about nine years ago and it is still repeated on a regular basis. Still the truth is the best defense against propaganda.
sagamartha · 08/11/2017 17:50
Can you define 'history of domestic violence' to me Saga
I thought it was well documented that women who live with someone with a history of DV are at increased risk of being murdered compared to women who don't - especially at the point they try to leave a relationship.
sagamartha · 08/11/2017 18:11
Still the truth is the best defense against propaganda
Yes - when anyone uses statistics, it's always good to analyse them, look at the paper and the original data and ask questions about it. It's surprising how many people make statements using data and then their statements fall apart on analysis.
It's always good to look at research instead of just taking people's word for something. People always have agendas.
Lancelottie · 08/11/2017 18:24
Surely, though, self-identification is going to make good statistical research very difficult.
I used to get research papers with cohorts matched by age and sex. Now, I quite often get them saying they have a 'balanced gender profile of respondents', which may mean the same thing, or that it contains a small number of post-transition transgender individuals, or that they have carefully sought out representatives of 76 special genders from the local 6th form, who knows?
Lancelottie · 08/11/2017 18:25
And these are biology and medical papers, not sociology. Your biology is often kinda crucial to the outcome.
Datun · 08/11/2017 18:27
'balanced gender profile of respondents',
That could be half men and half men who identify as women.
sagamartha · 08/11/2017 18:29
Surely, though, self-identification is going to make good statistical research very difficult
Exactly. When people say transwoman or transman in a study. it's going to be important to see how they have defined that.
Otherwise people may well get confused over the terms and misinterpret studies.
Datun · 08/11/2017 18:33
According to another new phenomena, I am a transwomen.
Using transactivist logic.
I always knew I was male, from the minute I was born. I was raised a male because I ignored my female socialisation and only took on board aspects of male socialisation, internalised, of course.
Now, in middle-age, I identify as a woman. Therefore I am transwoman.
You can’t ask me about my anatomy, because a) ruuude and b) it’s irrelevant as sex is a social construct.
Elendon · 08/11/2017 18:36
And what would that 'history of domestic violence' entail exactly Saga
Please do explain. Exactly. What domestic violence entails.
Elendon · 08/11/2017 18:50
I'm sorry to bleat on at this domestic violence explanation.
I'm being violent to trans women according to past posts (not on MN). I'm a terf a swerf and a bigot. Because I choose to explain biology. I was made to feel I'd punched someone in the face.
It really is that bizarre.
sagamartha · 08/11/2017 19:37
I am talking about the heightened risk to women from men when they try to leave. As far as I am aware, that's a very dangerous time for women. The figures of 2 women a week killed by their partners shows how risky it can be. That's the domestic violence i am talking about.
Gingernaut · 08/11/2017 22:10
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