Is drag blackface for women?

[heateallthebuns]

I feel a bit like it is. I see Mary Cheney compared the two. As drag artists exaggerate negative female stereotypes in their performances. This view has been criticised as blackface was more widespread, and, white men were in the power position impersonating men while drag performers are a minority themselves.... but does one minority impersonating another make it ok? Would bkackface have been ok if it was more limited historically? I don't think so. I am beginning to feel uncomfortable with drag, as a woman.

Ben Kingsley isn't a great example of blackface:

'Ben Kingsley was born Krishna Bhanji on December 31, 1943 in Scarborough, Yorkshire, England. His father, Rahimtulla Harji Bhanji, was a Kenyan-born medical doctor, of Gujarati Indian descent, and his mother, Anna Lyna Mary (Goodman), was an English actress. Ben began to act in stage plays during the 1960s. He soon became a successful stage actor, and also began to have roles in films and television. His birth name was Krishna Bhanji, but he changed his name to "Ben Kingsley" soon after gaining fame as a stage actor, fearing that a foreign name could hamper his acting career.'

The fact that he is perceived as white is really an indication of how racist the mainstream entertainment industry is.

www.imdb.com/name/nm0001426/bio

Where do pantomime Dames and Principle Boys fit within all this?

ringle

**

this is grotesque

What is grotesque? Entertaining the idea that people who performed as, or were entertained by, racist caricatures within a wider context of cultural racism may not as individuals all been motivated by contempt for the people being caricatured?

Since ringle has flounced, I want to put it out there that the majority of people have that "yuk! grotesque! wrong!" shout down-censor-avoid - knee-jerk reaction, to things they have received as taboo, and in my opinion it is not unlike the reaction to nuanced discussion about trans issues. It just demonstrates resistance to critical thinking.

But in my opinion it isn't and I think in a few years time they may realise that their gay male friends in drag acts are operating within a wider context of misogyny and sexism even if as individuals they are doing it out of love, warmth, affection, flattery, etc.

I think this is a very interesting subject. One thing that does strike me is WHY it is seen as wrong for someone white to "black up" for a role. If you are an actor then it is your job to portray another reality yet we now say that that reality must be within your own cultural and racial boundaries - why? Surely it is because of the wider context of racism in society which means that we no longer accept that someone who hasn't had the experience of being born black is able to take on that role. Another key factor is that the white actor is taking away work from a black (or Asian or other "minority") actor who is not considered for the role. We can see the same thing happening now with calls for disabled characters to be played by disabled actors. Do you think that drag is perceived in the same negative way because of the awareness of mysogny in society? In a utopian future without racism, mysogyny, or disabilism of any kind, will anybody be able to take on the role of anyone else without criticism because it will no longer be seen as an attack on a disadvantaged group? And until that happens, is it possible to "do drag" without offending anyone?

In a utopian future without racism, mysogyny, or disabilism of any kind, will anybody be able to take on the role of anyone else without criticism because it will no longer be seen as an attack on a disadvantaged group?

I hope so. Because part of the fun of acting is pretending to be someone different from yourself.

And until that happens, is it possible to "do drag" without offending anyone?

I think it would be hard to until then, because some audience members will be on tenterhooks anticipating the sting of mockery/contempt that usually accompanies the mimickery within the current context of inequality.

"I think this is a very interesting subject. One thing that does strike me is WHY it is seen as wrong for someone white to "black up" for a role." Well apart from the ethic of it, on a purely pragmatic level there is an element of "coming over here, taking out jobs"..... Imagine how galling to be a black actor and be beaten in an audition for a part by a white actor "blacked up". This applies even more to actors with disabilities....

BertrandRussell - I agree entirely! I think giving a role to someone with a disability is more problematic though as obviously it is not so clear cut. Often films (thinking of, for example, The Theory of Everything) portray someone before and after losing physical abilities. Being disabled shouldn't be a barrier to becoming an actor, but it is always going to be a barrier to taking on certain roles.

DD is mixed, and an aspiring actress; she feels she cannot apply for jobs that are 'specifically' black, white or asian. Only roles where the character is mixed or no significance is given to the race fo the character.

I feel this is very narrow and she should go for any job she can do & let the director/casting person make that decision for her; but she feels strongly that is wrong

This is being challengerd by the play (cannot remember the name) which has traditionally a male role but it's been given to a woman & the play 're-imagined' with this premis (sp?)

I was just reading about moana, they had a panel of ethnic Polynesian scholars to review the cultural sensitivity of the film. All of the main parts were full or mixed Hawaiian / kiwi / etc. If you listen to the actual people's opinions and cast them in the roles then that reflects the actual feelings of the characters more closely. I think one of the actors incorporated parts of their own childhood songs.

If your daughter is mixed though, she has experiences of both parts of her identity and could apply for parts of either though. I think it's a case of actors bringing a part of themselves to a role.

Which is a digression from drag, which is not about living a woman's experience I would argue. It's about how men view the performance of femininity.

But there is also the wider context of inequality that means people from disadvantaged groups have only offensive stereotypes to audition for - eg- An Afro-American male actor might find it refreshing to be pipped at the post by a white actor for a role as a gangster or a beggar, and a disabled person may be the same if they didn't get to play the villain.

If that white actor then 'blacked up' to play the gangster or the able-bodied actor was made to be disabled in the film, then that's the real point of offensiveness - because the very role in the film/play/mind of the director stereotypes that disadvantaged group. So it is about more than just missing out on the gig.

heateallthebuns
I posted before reading yours and I think that is a step in the right direction - a panel of consultants from the disadvantaged group advising creative directors like that.

Mostly it is. Most of the drag performers out there, are just misogynistic and vile.

There are a few honourable exceptions. But they're few and far between.

I find it incredible and yet wearyingly predictable, that trans"women" (IE biological males) are now being listened to regarding their objections to drag, when women have been ignored for years when we objected to it.

It's so depressingly clear, whose voices matter.

"One thing that does strike me is WHY it is seen as wrong for someone white to "black up" for a role."
Interesting difference between film and theatre -- in the theatre, we are (nowadays at least?) fine with a black King Lear. We now have staging of opera and Otello where the lead character has to convey that he is a Moor through some means other than blacking up.
And we now also have had female Hamlets (other than the traditional we're at an all girls school, so most of us will have to play male roles. Time to don the cod-pieces girls! Said of course with a Maggie Smith Jean Brodie accent........).But different in film? In film we expect 'realism', but then we end up with black actors reduced to first drug dealer/second drug dealer/first whore/second whore etc..........

So, are we saying that actors ARE actors, we know they are not a scotttish king, or a prince of Denmark who's a bit miserable, it's their job to convey that character without just a simplistic wear the clothes and make-up so you look right. If a white performer is playing Otello, then blacking-up is wrong...............
Again, we come to the fact my extremely strongly held view that femininity is a performance that anyone can potentially do, but that femaleness isn't. That in some cases(?) a female actor can have as good an interpretation of Hamlet, say, as a male actor, and perhaps even better? Because the theatre is one more step from reality/realism than film, because you have documentary films but not documentary theatre (apart from real life, and there are always some people whose real-life performances are terribly addictive!).

Performing femininity isn't the same to me as a male performing a female role, either on the stage or trying to do so in real-life. I think we can make a very strong case BTW for female actors being 'allowed' to perform as many male roles as they want (because the 'great' roles are mostly for men, so why should women not have a chance!). I think if a male tried to play a female role on stage by (just) performing femininity and not much else, it would not convince. And frankly, I have come across exactly that where a M2T actor was playing a female role, but it just came across to me as a camp gay man which had me wondering why this character was a camp gay man...........

What makes me particularly uncomfortable about drag is that I'm required to perform femininity to make my life easier in the workplace, and I don't get any choice about it.

A drag performer choosing to "doll up" is just rubbing my face in the dozens of irritations that I face as I reluctantly perform femininity every time I step out of the house.

I'm sitting here on my lunch break with my long hair scraped back to keep it out of my eyes while I work (the curls it took me 30 mins to put in fell out hours ago), my eyelashes crispy with mascara, my bra and skirt too tight because I'm sitting down, and my feet cold because I'm wearing heels and tights and it's bloody freezing in here.

I don't care if the drag performer is gay or straight, he's still a man and therefore has always had the whip hand. Add on the misogynistic streak that runs through all the drag acts I've seen, and it's not surprising I find it offensive.

Thankyou SomeDyke for your posts - really enlightening

stoat I completely agree with you about having your face rubbed in it - and I think that aspect got a bit lost in the thread

SomeDyke I agree. In film though, Morgan Freeman was famously chosen to play Red who was a ginger-haired bloke in the book. He made that film and there was no need for him to perform ginger... (is there such a thing)... Also in the Avengers I think Cathy Gale was originally written as a male character, which again made it...

It is completely possible that women and PoCs can play roles written for white men even better than any white men that might audition, and until writers stop having a head full of racist and sexist stereotypes underpinning their roles and dialogues, I think it is very beneficial all round for women and PoCs to be cast in roles intended for white males in film and TV as well as the theatre.

The Film I refer to is Shawshank Redemption -

Mrs Brown's Boys....should be banned

I would be very surprised if it wasn't the case that default characters weren't most often male male being seen as default humans after all with female characters only included if there was a reason in the plot for them being non-male............

Yep, according to this:
womenintvfilm.sdsu.edu/wp-content/uploads/2017/02/2016-Its-a-Mans-Celluloid-World-Report.pdf
default is white male who does stuff, women are younger, silent set-dressing.................

Mrs Brown’s boys should be banned because it’s shite.

Daniel Day-Lewis's depiction of someone with cerebral palsy in the 1989 film "My Left Foot" was blackface for disabled people. His Oscar should be revoked immediately.

I'm sitting here on my lunch break with my long hair scraped back to keep it out of my eyes while I work (the curls it took me 30 mins to put in fell out hours ago), my eyelashes crispy with mascara, my bra and skirt too tight because I'm sitting down, and my feet cold because I'm wearing heels and tights and it's bloody freezing in here

Perhaps you could try buying clothes that fit you. In this weather I find 60 denier opaque tights help. So far as make up and curling your hair, never worked in any office where that was anything other than a personal choice.

SomeDyke that's a fascinating post, thank you. I think theatre requires a collective, two-way, interactive suspension of disbelief. Partly it depends on the skill of the actors, but partly on the willingness of the audience to enter into it. Whereas cinema often (not always) aims for verisimilitude (and I think this can often be a mistake).

With drag, I do wonder if the "punching up/punching down" rule which applies to parody is part of the answer. The rare examples of drag which aren't offensive punch up. The satire is aimed not at women, but at the sexist stereotypes women are subjected to - for instance when author Jim Hines parodies sexist sci-fi book covers.

But most drag punches down - it is making fun out of women, emphasising and pandering to society's belief that women are lesser, to be laughed at, not taken seriously, to be sexualised, to be treated as cardboard cutouts rather than human beings.

I'm just been pondering after recalling the colour-blind casting in Midsomer Murders debate (www.theguardian.com/tv-and-radio/2011/mar/17/tv-matters-midsomer-murders), what cinema and TV would be like if writers were encouraged to have a sex-blind scripting policy. To continually ask, does this character need to be male/female? To count the number of male roles and female roles in each script, and how many lines each gets to deliver.........

I'm still a bit torn when it comes to drag -- I feel obliged to stand up for the gay male history aspects of effeminacy and camp as a specifically gay mode of expression, and the whole issue of performing femininity is not the same as femaleness. But then I do agree with the statement that most drag punches down, and that should be discouraged.