Is drag blackface for women?

[heateallthebuns]

I feel a bit like it is. I see Mary Cheney compared the two. As drag artists exaggerate negative female stereotypes in their performances. This view has been criticised as blackface was more widespread, and, white men were in the power position impersonating men while drag performers are a minority themselves.... but does one minority impersonating another make it ok? Would bkackface have been ok if it was more limited historically? I don't think so. I am beginning to feel uncomfortable with drag, as a woman.

What is the equivalent of females doing "drag" of males. Sorry I don't know, nor have I ever heard of it either which says it all doesn't it.

But I am sure there will be someone along very soon to show me pics of women dressed as men in tux with hairy legs or something.

Drag is awful male to female. It is so demeaning for women. Big tits, caterpillar eyelashes, big lips, yuk.

I detest drag. I don't care how artistic some of it can be, it is awful. And so degrading for women.

peachgreen - it doesn't need to be reciprocated. The whole Uncle Tom bullshit. The slaves working inside the house, doing the domestic work, looking after the kids etc - their resentment would be invisible to the masters of the house. People believe all sorts of stuff and have a sentimental view of a situation in order to justify themselves as being kind and decent, while perpetuating systematic injustice. Just like abusive controlling men can't understand why their wives leave them. They love their wives (in their own minds).
In Roman times lots of slave owners granted their slaves freedom, there have been relationships between slaves and owners. It is not clear cut. People who owned slaves were not freakish monsters or full-on KKK nuts. The majority were normal people invested in believing in things that supported the status quo.

I think it is, yes.

Why is Drag race ok when the Black and White minstrel show isn’t?
Why is it "ok" to make porn depicting sexual violence against women but not make films which depict violence against any racial group purely for viewers' pleasure? Just musing.

Btw I see both as being BAD just to be clear!

Furthermore, love and affection does not necessarily mean respect as a person. People can have sincere love and affection for their pets, and this kind of love is degrading when applied to intelligent humans who crave freedom and autonomy. Doesn't mean the 'warmth' isn't there in the feelings of the agent.

Guardian I think you should ask for your post to be deleted.

I don't think you realise how it comes across.

There are female drag artists so is that demeaning to men? Which bit is offensive, the women's clothing, the makeup, mannerisms, fake breasts or the whole lot together?

I don't know if female drag artists are demeaning to men, since I'm a woman. However, I think the power aspect of men's position in society may mean it is less / not demeaning.

I find the whole thing, not offensive, but just increasingly as being in bad taste and I'm uncomfortable about it. Not just the fake boobs, but also the parody of female characteristics, make up, hair, clothes.

Guardian I think you should ask for your post to be deleted.
Why???

Examples of male drag would be good for comparison.

We all know what the female drags look like. Explosive tits, luminous eyeshadow, OTT dresses, whore's lips the works.

I can see that it's bad taste but then you could say that imitation is the sincerest form of flattery. I've talked to a couple and they take it very seriously and would be extremely offended by the suggestions here.

"a lot of slave owners really felt a lot of affection and love for their slaves

This is the most mind-boggling stupid and offensive thing I’ve ever read on this site.** Jesus fucking Christ."

It is, sadly, a statement of fact. Some slaves were treated as beloved household retainers. And some stayed on as servants through choice after Abolition. Like most things it is more complex than it appears.

"I've talked to a couple and they take it very seriously and would be extremely offended by the suggestions here."

Would they? Oh, dear.

ringle I think it is important to be clear that people doing black and white minstrel performances may not have felt cruel contempt for the people and cultures they mimicked. They learned to play the instruments and music, probably out of respect for it (I just looked at some black and white minstrel performances on youtube - and although it seems culturally incomprehensible now, they are performing songs that originate in Jazz and dancing in a sensuous, debonair way, that may have felt somehow freeing from the more repressed European style - the face paint is obviously shocking, offensive and looks downright strange though) - I doubt they were all white supremacists. However, the wider context that made that sort of vulgar mimicry seem acceptable was racist and based in the idea of 'lesser' races.

Well you could say 'imitation is the sincerest form of flattery' about blackface too. I'm sure the performers saw it that way. It doesn't make it true though.

It is nonsensical to ask the people doing the performance parodying another group of people, whether those being imitated should find it offensive or in bad taste Wouldn't it be better to ask actual women if they find it bad taste / offensive? From this thread it seems that there are a proportion who do.

I’m sure Alec Guinness thought Gandhi was pretty awesome. Doesn’t mean it’s OK.

Ben Kingsley sorry. Alec was up for it!

Guardian I think you should ask for your post to be deleted

I agree. You sound like one of the apologists from a "golly thread"

It's not such a well-established genre, but there are also "drag kings", women who perform as men.
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Drag_king

The same, or different?

The same, or different?

Exactly the same, if you ignore history and social power structures.

We don't tend to in feminism but lots of people like to when they want to make disingenuous points.

The factual statement that the relationship between some slave owners and some slaves was closer to that of servant than the traditional view of slavery I am happy to agree with. The idea that the Black and White Minstrels came from a place of love and respectful admiration is, frankly, more of a stretch.........

The idea that the Black and White Minstrels came from a place of love and respectful admiration is, frankly, more of a stretch

There is a context to it. Take Louis Armstrong doing all that smiling and grinning while he performs. That has its roots in grinning subservience. People love Louis Armstrong - not just his trumpeting, but his singing and his charisma. White people generally aren't that bothered about the 'grinning goon persona' in the same way it pissed off even his (younger/ more critical) dark-skinned musical colleagues who could see it for what it was.

Black and white minstrels came up before TV while there was segregation, before many white people hadn't actually seen someone with dark skin. The travelling minstrels playing concerts of this amazing infectious music would have seemed glamorous, exotic and also comic. They would have no context for where the caricature came from. Some people would probably become black and white minstrels having only ever heard this music in this context, with no idea what an offensive caricature it was.

I find it really irritating that some people are trying to make out I am some defender or apologist of racial stereotyping and subjugation - when in fact I am saying - people weren't made differently then, the majority of the population will always be fairly wilfully oblivious to inequality and keen to defend it in order to avoid change even if it is progress.
People be more educated, but they have not changed.
Some people on this thread defend the caricaturing of women as though it is different. But in my opinion it isn't and I think in a few years time they may realise that their gay male friends in drag acts are operating within a wider context of misogyny and sexism even if as individuals they are doing it out of love, warmth, affection, flattery, etc.

this is grotesque.

Historical context is always relevant.