Article Showing Autogynaphilia in Action

[MightyMikey]

Read this article in The Guardian today, how can anyone (even Guardian readers) deny AGP exists. This man explains the glee in involving unsuspecting shop workers to his fetish - surely the shop girls (I can safely assume he targets the young female cashiers) should be protected from this. They are unconsenting participants in his fetish.
Unfortunately, this guy is going to be more protected than these women workers if and when self ID comes into effect.
Guardian Article

Joanne explains: ‘Every time I was in the house alone I would dress up.

“Love, did you manage to get the washing on and clear that drain while I was at the shops and picking up the dog from the vet?”

“Er, no, sorry.”

I used to work in a food shop. No one came in and made suggestive comments about what they would be doing with the yoghurt later, and it wouldnt have been appropriate if they had. Same with selling underwear. you;re there to sell the item, not participate in someones fantasy.

In any case, the assistant did not report being uncomfortable selling underwear; their voices are not recorded. Its his fantasy on display.
Its more likely the assistants are uncomfortable being around a man who is desperately trying to engage their attention. We're pretty good at picking up on that and it displays untowards intent.

Its shameful that so many men think their attentions are amusing, and react with hostility when we say we are uncomfortable. It shows mens ignorance about the risks we are constantly aware of; especially the risk of a situation escalating.

Just read about a guy who wanted to be treated as an "adult" baby and tried to use the "it's my right" angle to get the university (female) staff to play along and validate their fetish.
Not too different from how AGP works - in fact just the same.
Canadian Adult Baby Story

That's vile.

That's disgusting and disgraceful that the teachers had to bring a human rights complaint to force the school to stop forcing them to participate in this man's fetish.

FloraP - I've never managed to successfully buy lingerie online, neither has DP.

I think it's possible to do it in person respectfully and consensually, and the assistants we've had didn't seem in the least bit fazed. I got the impression it was a pretty common occurrence for them, in fact. We weren't creepy or winking at her or making it sexual in any way - it was the same as if I were buying lingerie for myself.

I had no problem with the story until the point where he winked at the assistant and didn't care if she didn't like it. That's where he crossed the line, for me.

I confess I'm struggling to see the distinction between autogynephilia and straightforward cross-dressing too.

ItsAllGoingToBeFine started a dedicated thread to this Adult Baby story and the points made over there are interesting.
www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights

whycant I disagree. All you know is that the assistant didn't react, you don't know how they were feeling because their ability to express it is limited by their need to do their job.

It wasn't the same as if you were buying lingerie for yourself because that's not part of a sexual fetish (or if it is, it is indistinguishable from any other woman buying lingerie as far as the other people involved are concerned so they would not know). A man buying lingerie for himself is obviously indulging his fetish at the time he is buying it.

I'm not buying that you can't buy lingerie online. Returns policies are pretty easy to use.

Buy women's underwear, get a thrill from women's underwear, enjoy shopping for women's underwear with your partner - all fine and dandy, whatever floats your boat.

Forcing an assistant to be part of this process - and indeed enjoying her discomfort - really really not OK

Agree that being deliberately provocative and creepy to the female staff members is really not OK. And I am very concerned about the gender self identity issues.

On the other hand if I (a woman) wore secret sexy lingerie under a coat - lets say the classic scenario of wearing only a mac and sexy lingerie, no dress - to pick up my husband from the train station and it gave me a sexual thrill to wear that and to know that - does that make me an AGP? Am I missing something? Don't women dress their bodies sexily (in private or otherwise) and find it arousing? Apologies if I have compeltely not got it! I am not trolling, just confused.

And in no way to say that I condone men being creepy and abusive with their fetishes or with sexual remarks or behaviour.

kinka - no, AGP is about men being turned on by the idea / image / actuality of them being dressed as a woman. (And usually a hyper sexualised woman, the undies they are wearing are not tummy hugging period pants )

Thanks OlennasWimple. This AGP doesn't sound very new then? But giving it this AGP name is?

What is it if a woman wore a man's suit and felt sexy? like in that Robert Palmer video from the 80s/90? Or dressed in a man's shirt the morning after?

Whycant you have justified this behaviour to yourself to the extent where you can’t imagine, or certainly don’t demonstrate you understand that another person (the shop assistant) isn’t cool with how your DH gets his rocks off. Or perhaps you don’t really care. It’s all about his rights/needs etc.

You might be cool to play, but it is incredibly rude to have unwitting and unwilling accomplices add to the frisson.

I think it would be a spectacularly sheltered and judgemental person who was offended or made uncomfortable by a bloke wearing knickers. I mean, as far as fetishes goes, it's not exactly something out of the Marquis de Sade, is it?

No one is offended by a man wearing women's pants. It's about being a unwilling participant in their active fantasy, being forced to participate even though you know that this stranger is getting off on your discomfort. Not be able to say no because you're trying to do your job and not get told off for losing a customer, or worse, be accused of transphobia.

No one is offended by a man wearing women's pants. It's about being a unwilling participant in their active fantasy, being forced to participate even though you know that this stranger is getting off on your discomfort. Not be able to say no because you're trying to do your job and not get told off for losing a customer, or worse, be accused of transphobia.

Either people aren't offended/discomfited and it therefore doesn't affect them; or they are offended (and a bit bigoted), and he is calling them out. Either way, I can't really see that his actions are worse than theirs.

This has nothing to do with trans. A person who likes wearing the other sex's lingerie is not necessarily by any means trans. Grayson Perry is not trans because he wears awesome outfits, he's just a guy who likes to wear a dress.

Firstly, not DH - DP. Please. Marriage is a ridiculous, patriarchal fantasy, so please don't assume it.

"It's about being a unwilling participant in their active fantasy, being forced to participate even though you know that this stranger is getting off on your discomfort. Not be able to say no because you're trying to do your job and not get told off for losing a customer, or worse, be accused of transphobia."

No-one was being a participant in a fantasy, just the facilitator of a purchase of underwear which society has decreed to be exclusively for women.

They didn't have to see my DP in a state of undress, and there was nothing sexual about the shopping trip. Indeed, this is not a particularly sexual fetish in DPs case.

We telephoned in advance and had a very frank conversation with the department manager because we specifically didn't want anyone to be discomforted or embarrassed. Consent is everything in any situation remotely like this. Manager said, and I quote almost verbatim, that it was a 'very common request and they were happy to help'. They told us to ask for a particular staff member who was experienced in this kind of request.

I'm not sure how we could have been any more respectful. So I guess you're saying that men cannot buy 'lingerie' for themselves in person in any circumstance whatsoever.

You make an awful lot of assumptions AssasinatedBeauty, but I don't think you're particularly interested in the reality of the situation where it doesn't fit with your preconceptions.

Some of which I think are pretty ignorant, actually... I don't think you know many people who cross-dress - since you seem to have pigeon-holed it as some kind of sleazy, filthy, exploitative exercise.

In many cases it's not a remotely sexual thing.

It’s fairly staggering that the concept of consent is seen as either bigoted or vanilla.

It's got nothing to do with consent. Unless every single shopping transaction is about consent.

Who's saying that, birdbandit?

Whycant, just wading in here to say as like you, a wife of a crossdresser, I find it ridiculous when folk project their understanding of their situation onto mine, and assume everyone thinks the same/behaves the same.

My DH is gross! He talks a good game, a well rehearsed narrative of his oppression by societal norms, but that’s bullshit. Took a long time, lots of sleuthing (which makes me the bad guy) to unpeel the onion. He is a wanking, porn obsessed sleaze who gets off on his making me and others uncomfortable, trying to bully me into things outside of what I want to do sexually (I don’t want to shag other men for him to watch, how drearily vanilla of me) he cross dresses because it gives him an erection. He goes on cross dressing adventures as a sex tourist.

Whycant, takes all types doesn’t it? Wouldn’t want to inflict my DH on a salesperson who just wants to pay the mortgage and eat.

birdbandit - just because your exDH (I trust he's an ex after what you say about his bad behaviour towards you) was a fetishistic cross-dresser does not mean that everyone (or even a majority) of the folks who like to cross-dress are fetishists. There is nothing in the Guardian article to suggest this is fetishistic behaviour, or that the communication with the salespeople has anything sexual about it.

Honestly, this is basic stuff. This why I don't post in this forum. The lack of even the most rudimentary knowledge/reading on issues of feminism and gender is embarrassing.

You need to reread the article. I’ll find the quote....

Laughing at your thing about my not understanding the basics...Good grief.