Patriarchy

[DaisyRaine90]

Is it really so bad to have a patriarchal household??

I mean, feminism is about equality right so it should be 50:50 in diff households ??

Lineysrun- thank you for your well thought out answer!
MrsPratchett- I think
HW is a sex pest, but I don't see how a "patriarchy" is part of the problem, where is the actual social structure of patriarchy in place in USA and how do you feel it enabled this case? What part of the justice system supports patriarchy? The low conviction rates, are because of a high burden of proof. It's well known that a majority female jury is less sympathetic to rape victims, not patriarchy causing an injustice there.

About equal pay upto 30, yes because around this age women take time out to have kids, go part time etc... it's insulting to say these women don't know their own minds and are victims of a system stacked against them. These are bright capable women saying that they want to have more family time and nothing wrong with that!

Rape, general violence- again what part of this patriarchy supports rape, where is it? Men are more aggressive generally but I think it's biological basis, something that they can control but unfortunately can manifest itself.
Sexual harasment culture- because everyone turns the other cheek women too. When I was in school a male teacher used to be highly inappropriate towards female students- he would twang their bra straps, make comments about appearance. I recall a female teacher talking to us about it in general conversation. It was we'll known fact by everyone and overlooked. I don't see how this is "patriarchy"? It's too simplistic an answer. There is a culture of everyone ignoring stuff like this.., think saville, Rotherham, etc... people knew and chose not to act, not patriarchy.
As for female toilet cleaners, last time I checked there were plenty o male cleaners too?
Battle axe- how do you feel medical system is patriarchy? If it's lack of females then it may be to do with lots of females opting to do general practice and then going part time.
I agree single parents don't get much help, but again there are females in power, why don't they do something? Where is the patriarchy stopping this?
Plump squirrel- your sister, like myself represent lots of women who value raising children and are willing to turn down a promotion. I don't want sympathy, I don't feel I'm a statistic reflecting "injustice". I genuinely feel women prefer to have this option, in general to men and don't really want to give it up.
Sonic boom- yes maybe my daughter will have a drop in her wage if she takes time out like me to have a baby- again this doesn't make her a victim.
How does the problem of rape come down to patriarchy? Where in our social structure does it say rape is acceptable? Not saying there isn't a problem, I just fail to see how the buzzword of patriarchy is so relevant
I don't want to bring up my daughters with a victimhood mentality that there whole reality is being dictated to by men because it isn't. Yes they might not make it into the boardroom, So what? Is this the pinnacle of female achievement that we must all aspire to?

Who does 4 night feeds??

Why does a household need a head?
We don’t have one. We make individual choices for ourselves and talk about joint things,and that’s more out of courtesy because we trust each other to make right choices. And when we don’t, we support each other and stick together to sort out the fallout.

Thetoast- I'm not averaging out, I just don't see how "patriarchy" is the be all and end all answer to every feminist/women's issue- it isn't.
Yes women and children have died in wars goes without saying, but many more would die or be subjected to far worse if men hadn't lost their lives. Human nature isn't always good and I sincerely doubt smashing the partriatchy is a simple one stop fix to solve all world problems and wars.

Rebelfreddy- is like to think that this is how most households are these days. Certainly is in mine, decisions are shared, respect is mutual and this is what is needed more mutual respect and less "smashing of patriarchy".

everydayfeminism.com/2013/05/patriarchy-and-how-it-shows-up-for-everyone/

Even if I look up examples of patriarchy- you get the above bollocks. A list of examples where "patriarchy" is to blame

Female to female hostility- answer patriarchy- wtf? How are men to blame for that?
Parenting- children should be given a voice... err on what patriarchy household are they told to shut up? I suspect writer here is suggesting children should have more power.... i.e. Taking hormone blockers when they decide at the ripe old age of 10.
Queer relationships- again wtf, patriarch has decided one lesbian should take the "male role"- come on now, as a female do we not have the right to express ourselves as we wish? How is this patriarchy?
In fact this whole article is an example of the "blame the patriarchy" tripe that is unduly dominating feminism and detracting from making actual positive changes for women.

Why don't we want to be fork lift truck drivers, refuse collectors, builders

Who says women don't want to be those things? I worked on the roads for over a decade, loved the job hated the sexism. Sexism due to arsehole statements and attitudes like this. You don't know what the fuck you are even on about do you?

Rape, general violence- again what part of this patriarchy supports rape, where is it?

Take a look at a few newspaper reports about rape and sexual assault. If comments are open online, read through them. We are living with rape culture, it is excused and minimised constantly. Yes, women excuse and minimise it as well, because they have grown up with that attitude.

'I fell on her'

teenage sex assault victim was flattered

attacker walks free

victim blaming

MissyMoo just because you don't want to believe in systemic inequality doesn't mean it doesn't exist. Your deconstruction of patriarchy suggests you've misunderstood the whole concept.

Patriarchy is the cultural hegemony in which we all exist. It privileges men and we all accept this because it's hard to recognise it as privilege- it's just reality. It's not about men v women, it's about how we view the world. Traditionally women have been very good at policing the patriarchy- hence female jurors being harsh in sexual harassment cases. It's such an entrenched mindset that women basically don't see what the problem is. In fact it kind of makes sense that men would be more sympathetic as they would be less likely to accept such behaviour towards themselves.

What's shocking about HW to me isn't that he abused his position of power, it's that I doubt that in the 1990's it would have even been seen as that bad. No one complained because it was part of the culture. Powerful men have always sexually predated on women: nothing to see here.

Lastly, women giving up in careers being a 'choice' is again problematic. Why is it usually women? Why do we make this short term win for a long term loss? It may feel like a choice but tradition, work infrastructure and societal expectations all collude in getting women to make that choice to their own financial detriment.

Feminism worked for my generation until we reached 30. Once we had kids there was no infrastructure to support us and many women I know have shouldered the burden of family care to their own financial detriment. It's problematic and it's not about blaming men or saying women are victims - it's so much more complicated than that. It's about challenging systems that still disadvantage 1/2 the population and not blaming women because they made 'bad choices'. In fact the whole idea of 'choice' is kind of problematic. I think we make very few real choices.

@Missymoo100 yeah we’d all like to think that, but sadly it’s not about what I think but what I see around me and many households are not like that. In many households still one person holds the power and that’s predominantly a male. I wonder why.

Missymoo your post is hilarious unless of course you’re being ironic.

You’ve just described patriarchy and then said “what does it have to do with patriarchy?”

Patriarchy isn’t a conspiracy. It’s a system.

Ask yourself why there are no female Harvey Weinsteins? The vast majority of movie moguls are men and men such as HW know full well they can use their power to sexually harass young women who are much further down on the ladder and who are relying on him for work.

He chooses young lesser experienced women because he knows that they’ll be less likely to complain. Not only because of that but because they’ve seen what happens to women who do complain. You say rape isn’t considered socially acceptable. Search the internet for reaction to rape victims of high profile men who have come forward and see for yourself.

And of course women can practise patriarchy too. It’s not a black and white men against women. Look at mothers who force FGM on their daughters. They are women doing it to girls but the reason why they’re doing it (because an uncut girl is considered promiscuous and will not be able to find a husband thus lowering her chances of economic survival) is patriarchy at its finest.

Like I said it’s a system, not a conspiracy.

Alternaticetentacle- I don't know many women who want these jobs, I don't see the same media focus on it either. There is no need for your rude aggressive tone. No one ever persuaded anyone by being a dick.

You may not like her style but she is very clear on the issues around EF.

So many points to consider here, but just on the subject of women not clomouring to do dirty, dangerous low paid jobs-I don't see men clamouring to be cleaners and care workers either! And the most dangerous job is prostitution- largely women in this country.

Why don't we want to be fork lift truck drivers, refuse collectors, builders

I wanted to be a builder as a teenager and was discouraged by just about everyone.

Yes women and children have died in wars goes without saying, but many more would die or be subjected to far worse if men hadn't lost their lives

Well that makes no sense - many more would have lived if they hadn't been killed by the men on the other side (or through accidents making artillery and equipment for their own)!

And I think you'll find that 'far worse' is also suffered by those women and children anyway, again, committed by the men on the other side of said war, and then by their own side when the men who went to war came home (or by the privations caused by said war)

Sorry, you can't spin this. Civilian casualties are important - as important as combatant.

MissyMoo if everydayfeminism is the source of your understanding of feminism then I'd suggest you take a look at the rest of this board - it's widely acknowledged to be a pile of laughable twaddle and is absolutely not representative of the beliefs of the majority of feminists here.

About equal pay upto 30, yes because around this age women take time out to have kids, go part time etc... it's insulting to say these women don't know their own minds and are victims of a system stacked against them. These are bright capable women saying that they want to have more family time and nothing wrong with that

Exactly the same amount of men are becoming parents at the same time.

Runningsimple-
"Traditionally women have been very good at policing the patriarchy- hence female jurors being harsh in sexual harassment cases. It's such an entrenched mindset that women basically don't see what the problem is"- no I don't accept that women are too blind or stupid idea see this, that to me undermines women, making out were all brainwashed.

You are right that there are injustices that face women, but patriarchy is an comminly cited as the cause.

For the poster that said why is it women that take time out and not men- because we have an innate desire to care for our offspring, all species do this, it tends to be females more so than males. It annoys me that women are told that the only reason why they would wilfully make this choice is patriarchy.

I agree single parents don't get much help, but again there are females in power, why don't they do something?

Parents are equally male and female.

". It annoys me that women are told that the only reason why they would wilfully make this choice is patriarchy."
They aren't, are that? But it is certainly true that the way the working environment is organised in this country means that very often women and men don't have very much choice about how they organise their work/family balance. And that is down to the patriarchy!

because we have an innate desire to care for our offspring, all species do this, it tends to be females more so than males.

Fish, reptiles?

..respect is mutual and this is what is needed more mutual respect and less "smashing of patriarchy".

If there was mutual respect there would be no patriarchy.

Missy moo

Patriarchy does cause a lot of injustice. The belief that women are innately prepared to care for children is very problematic. I think neuroscience might be with you for the first year or so post-partum but after this it's just convention.

Women don't just put caring needs first during infancy, it's a pattern that extends throughout childhood and even into the care of elderly parents. There is absolutely no reason why this should be so gendered. There are many caring men and many smart ambitious women. In my opinion, the reason patriarchal systems continue to impede women is because they are defined as more caring and therefore more innately satisfied by 'choosing' to look after people to the detriment of their own finances and independence.

The problem is that the nuclear family is a patriarchal in structure and relies on someone (usually the woman) compromising themselves financially to hold the whole unit together.

Read some Judith Butler. It's eye opening

Many more women and girls would be alive if it wasn't for men and boys who've murdered them for being female.

When I was in school a male teacher used to be highly inappropriate towards female students- he would twang their bra straps, make comments about appearance.

This is horrendous and shows complete entitlement, seeing girls as objects for his own amusement, feeling it completely acceptable to belittle and degrade girls in this way. This attitude towards girls and women is commonplace in a society which perpetuates it through how women are presented, normalisation of street harassment and so on, though a teacher doing it is particularly disturbing.

For the poster that said why is it women that take time out and not men- because we have an innate desire to care for our offspring

I've read on other sections of this forum numerous posts from women who've been pressured into sacrificing their careers/putting them on hold when they didn't want to. I recall a post from a woman who was told she "wasn't being a proper mother" for wanting to go back to work, one who sacrificed her career even though she was the breadwinner because although she wanted to go back she thought "realistically" her husband would go on to earn more purely because men tend to, and others. Many make the choice freely (I have an aunt who did) but many are forced/pressured into it, just as many men would want to be the primary carer to their children but face barriers to doing so.

I personally have no desire to have children but have a very strong desire to excel in my future career.

An anecdote for you.

I was talking this week to a group of twenty-somethings in my old job -- all graduates, all in the same role.

One (male) had just come back from a couple of weeks' paternity leave and was saying what a wrench it was to leave his new baby, and that he'd asked HR about parental leave and been strongly discouraged 'because, really, we intend that for the mothers'.

One of the others (female) had just been told (oh so jokingly) by their joint boss, 'Don't you dare go and have a baby while we're so busy.'

Twenty years previously, the same company refused to have a workplace nursery because 'employees' wives might want to use it too', obviously forgetting that the male employees were related to their offspring in any way.

I won't out the company, but it obviously hasn't improved its thinking much since I left.