Is the silencing and ridicule of older women necessary to keep women in their place?

[QuentinSummers]

On a thread a while back someone (can't remember who, sorry) said they thought there was a deliberate strategy to stop older women talking to and influencing younger women. For example the no-platforming of Germaine Greer.
I've been thinking about it a lot and I agree. I have been thinking about the treatment if Mary Whitehouse as a crank and religious nutter when i was younger - but a lot of her fears have come to pass.
And the recent thread about asexuality - if older women and younger women talked more openly about their sexuality and women's desire, how women's sex lives are over the years, impact of things like hormonal contraception and childbirtg, perhaps it would help younger women understand and be comfortable with themselves. I can't help thinking that all the labels are people trying to assert that they are different to the rather homogenous, masculine, aggressive view of sex that's everywhere at the moment.
Then the other day I heard a BBC presenter describing the White Widow (female terrorist, high value target for the USA, killed in a drone strike) as a ridiculous and rather pathetic figure. Which seemed really incongruous given how much effort the US have put into catching her. And made me wonder if she was being deliberately ridiculed as she was influencing a lot of younger women to join ISIS (It's a distasteful example but really struck me).

Also tied in here are all the younger women who "get on better with men" (I was one of those myself, I am so embarrassed now).

What can we do to build the credibility of older women? I really think it's necessary to help women overall.

Thanks for reading the wall of waffly text

I recently watched a YouTube clip of Germaine Greer in the 70's. She spoke with her usual razor sharp wit, concise, direct and clear. She quickly tore a twat of a mysogynist man up when he tried to outwit her much to the delight of the women and men around her. She was also, literally quite striking to look at.

I still happen to think she's striking and amazingly well spoken (in particular her BBC interview which makes me smile no matter how many times I watch it -"oh fucking hell, I'm getting tired of this"). I. Any link, am rubbish on phones.

She's not viewed the same by the general public now though and it's classic ageism. She has a progressive mind and is still influencing me and god knows how many others, but I almost see an eye-roll when I try and discuss it with others (I've stopped now, I get too angry).

Horrible culture. My closest circle of friends have 2 women much older than me. My MIL is 92 and I'd do anything for that woman and not out of duty but sheer respect. She singlehandedly raised 2 sons, ran a grocery business and campaigned for women's rights, overcame mental illness, still shops for herself, can politely debate most topics (and win) and has the most amazing sense of humour and a cackle that will make most people turn and grin. The only thing I'm hating about her age is that I don't have that much time left with her.

Ok so here is a good example

www.varsity.co.uk/comment/13829

"The sad fact is that feminism has outgrown one of its pivotal thinkers.....To pick on trans women because they interfere with a gender theory that was developed more than forty years ago is to be incredibly arrogant, not to mention ignorant about social change.

Greer is now just an old, white woman who has forced herself into exile. Her comments are irreparably damaging, reflecting a total lack of regard for trans lives. Thinking what she thinks, she cannot be a prominent feminist any longer. She no longer stands for the same things we do"

How flipping disrespectful. I cannot believe an older man would be treated like this. Thinking of the derefence granted to people like Michael Heseltine and David Attenborough.

Even Ken Livingstone, who has some controversial political views, doesn't get dismissed as too old to be relevant.

Older women with brilliant minds are the enemy of Patriarchy. They have memories, know all the tricks, see all the patterns, aren't afraid of coming across as unfuckable by saying what they think and doing what they want, and they will not be compromised. They are going to save the world in my opinion.

It is essential for the maintenance of Patriarchy to stereotype, silence, isolate and scapegoat brilliant older women (the crone, witch, hag, etc) to limit their awesome power and influence. Absolutely nothing new there. Germaine Greer is just another in a very long line...

I find it isn't men but younger women who silence me. That is what is really sad.

The men I work with respect me for my skill, knowledge and experience. They trust me and are not frightened of me. They know they won't be misunderstood.

Many of the younger women seem to want to patronise me. They want to show how much better they are than me; prettier, more in tune with the modern world. They are waiting for me to say something racist/sexist/politically incorrect or to use a word that is no longer "acceptable" or "appropriate" - just as their own words won't be in ten years time!!

Dying for me to make a comment that shows how crap my marriage was or how outdated my views are. They love to say "it's not the 19 bloody 50s any more" whilst understanding nothing either of my age or the 1950s!

Why I don't know - it certainly isn't everywhere by any means. I have daughters and many friends and colleagues of all ages - but when the silencing comes that is where I see it coming from.

So how do we address that? I don't know, I really don't. But is good to see it raised as an issue.

Mirai
Not that it excuses young women - but it sounds to me that the males are more secure in themselves, confident that they'll be taken seriously, etc- the kind of confidence you only generally have if you are born with a penis and have male socialisation.

I see what you are saying as being the different side of that same coin of what an earlier poster said about older women being the problem.

It just comes down to the fact that there is nothing flattering or edifying about being from the oppressed class rather than the oppressor class. Divide and conquer is easy - young women chucking older women under a bus to win the approval of the males (the oppressor class) and older women chucking younger women under the bus for the same reason.

It comes back to the OP and I agree with it - that mistrust between women of different ages is deliberately seeded* to prevent unity.

*This kind of thing again goes way back doesn't it? Making the 'marrying maiden' leave home and join the inlaws and disrupting mother-daughter transference of wisdom and power - every fairytale having a wicked older women wanting to ruin the beautiful and youthful heroine, the ridiculing of older women, sexualising and infantalising the young and female...

I think it's easier for young women to find fault with older women (victim blaming, essentially) than admit that their opinions are tolerated or even encouraged by men because they are young and attractive. Otherwise they'd have to admit the extent to which women are discriminated against and that's scary!

Fair point. (Hadn't thought about the older women in fairly stories in this context).

Ideally I want to respect people for what they know and who they are and learn from those who can teach me something, young or old, male or female.

I've noticed this too, in the political party I used to be in. Older and younger women would communicate only where necessary, and rarely socially. It was seen as a bit odd to be friends with someone from a different generation. With the men, it was more of a spectrum of different ages together.

I think this is a huge incentive for retaining women-only spaces/women-only organising. The barrier of mistrust, stereotyping and misogyny separating women dissolves with an absence of men.

In my 20s I honestly couldn’t see what older women were complaining about. I was able to study a male dominated subject and participate in male dominated sports (albeit with a disproportionate number of lesbian teammates) and I really didn’t feel my sex would ever hold me back. I experienced everyday harassment but never any really scary sexual assault.
I resented feminists casting me in role of a victim (how I saw it).

I only realise now how my experience was narrow and privileged.

Yes a lot of young women are oblivious to the spike in their social status coinciding with their age-based fuckability rank and innocently belive that they have 'choices', 'agency', 'merit' etc....

"The barrier of mistrust, stereotyping and misogyny separating women dissolves with an absence of men."

How does that square with the huge amount of casual ageism on MN?

Is MN a woman- only space?

Additionally - I have not really witnessed people being mistreated on the basis of their age within the forum - especially since I don't know how old anyone is and people namechange all the time.

MrsDoylesTeabags

Yes! I remember that programme. I think the (younger) man was saying something along the lines of ‘but wouldn’t she leave him if he was abusive’ and the (older) woman - I think she was a social worker or teacher(?) - said something like it’s not that simple. I remember pointing it out to dh at the time.

Imagine being an arrogant little student so far up your own arse that you think that you get to decide whether Germaine fucking Greer is a good enough feminist. Jeez.

No, of course MN is not women only.

But it's a predominantly female set of posters, and ageism is rife (there have been several previous threads on this). Not necessarily mistreatment, more an unacceptable level of ingrained (casual) ageism.

There is very little about MN that functions like an actual woman-only space. Loads of male (incl. Transwomen) posters here and fawning over them.
In a woman-only space women are confronted by our own received misogynist stereotyping that put us off getting to know one-another in a mixed space.

Yy BlackForestCake it takes a special kind of arrogance for that!

Loads of male (incl. Transwomen) posters here and fawning over them.

Not in FWR anyway and I've noticed fewer and fewer cries of 'transphobic' on the other boards.

That's good news Flavia

Agreeing with a trans-inclusionary approach is a perfectly respectable point of view.

Characterising those who support inclusion as 'fawning over transwomen' is also a form of arrogance.

MN doesn't really do worthwhile debate anymore, it's a series of echo chambers and people hiding the stuff they don't agree with.

I think it's funny that one one hand you get posters saying how important the predominantly female space of MN is, and how it attracts trolls because it's so threatening; whilst on this thread isn't been described as not having enough female posters for it to be valid to point out that ageism regularly encountered.

I am perfectly happy to include transwoman in society generally, just not in women only spaces, scholarships or sports TrojanWhore

Male violence won't be solved by giving any man who fancies it access to those spaces under 'self identification'.

"The barrier of mistrust, stereotyping and misogyny separating women dissolves with an absence of men."

Actual lol.
If only.

deydododatdodontdeydo
Done a lot of women-only stuff?

Depends what you mean. Self-selecting "women only" groups tend to be formed by like minded people who are very supportive and pleasant spaces.
General groups of women, although not designated women-only, such as school gate groups, "mums" groups, even mumsnet, can be judgemental, nasty and pretty much everything else.