Is the silencing and ridicule of older women necessary to keep women in their place?

[QuentinSummers]

On a thread a while back someone (can't remember who, sorry) said they thought there was a deliberate strategy to stop older women talking to and influencing younger women. For example the no-platforming of Germaine Greer.
I've been thinking about it a lot and I agree. I have been thinking about the treatment if Mary Whitehouse as a crank and religious nutter when i was younger - but a lot of her fears have come to pass.
And the recent thread about asexuality - if older women and younger women talked more openly about their sexuality and women's desire, how women's sex lives are over the years, impact of things like hormonal contraception and childbirtg, perhaps it would help younger women understand and be comfortable with themselves. I can't help thinking that all the labels are people trying to assert that they are different to the rather homogenous, masculine, aggressive view of sex that's everywhere at the moment.
Then the other day I heard a BBC presenter describing the White Widow (female terrorist, high value target for the USA, killed in a drone strike) as a ridiculous and rather pathetic figure. Which seemed really incongruous given how much effort the US have put into catching her. And made me wonder if she was being deliberately ridiculed as she was influencing a lot of younger women to join ISIS (It's a distasteful example but really struck me).

Also tied in here are all the younger women who "get on better with men" (I was one of those myself, I am so embarrassed now).

What can we do to build the credibility of older women? I really think it's necessary to help women overall.

Thanks for reading the wall of waffly text

I've posted about this before but it's a constant battle I have with my mother.
She leads a trans group (Lordy only knows why, when asked her answer is always 'I like trans people' )
All of whom are trans women and most of whom are 'lesbians'.
When I point out that in her version of feminism she spends a very large proportion of her time literally making tea and cakes for straight men she just tells me to shut up.
The thing is is that she gets it!! She used to be a radical feminist, when we speak about it her POV is that all gender is contructed and that you can't change your sex, but we should just be play along anyway because it might upset them.

I spoke to her about the cotton ceiling and she was like 'I 100% get what your saying but I can't see why lesbians can't just lie and say it's because they don't fancy them for another reason'.
It makes me feel so rejected by her that she chooses the feelings of strangers over the rights of her daughters and granddaughters but I also understand that it's an internalised misogyny and it's sad because she obviously just thinks men are better than women which includes herself.

I've been listening to the sisterhood and after oral histories on the British library website recently. They are all older women who were involved in the women's liberation movement. There are also a lot of older women talking frankly in the 'remembering the 80s collection including people who were at green ham common. It's really, really interesting hearing them talking about their lives, I've learned such a lot. There are intelligent and brave and I think more people should listen to them. Link here www.bl.uk/sisterhood

*green ham common lol! I love green eggs and ham. I mean Greenham Common Women's Peace camp obviously

Today 17:02 SentimentalLentil

It's almost like young women don't know where old women come from.

Exactly. No one is born aged 50. And although the world may change, humanity doesn't tend to.

And this:

I was having this conversation with a friend the other day about how we only just now feel like we've worked out that we're angry. Like we've had this feeling inside and haven't been able to tell what it is and we've just worked out it's anger.

You don't just suddenly become an angry person because you have a birthday. You become angry because of your lived experience. The accumulation of events where you see the same thing happening over and over.

It's really no coincidence that many women say I'm turning into my mother.

I'm finding the 'becoming angry, recognising angry' comment really interesting, too.

... and thanks for the link to the BL archive.

Being angry as a woman is one of the most gender non conforming thing you can do. It's literally the worst thing you can be 'an angry feminist', 'an angry lesbian'.

Calm down dear, no one likes frown lines.

I think you're right about that, Lentil. And I think it may be even more true for old ladies. "Angry" and "autonomous" - it's not what women, and older women are not supposed to be. People get really angry about any sign of non-altruism and anger in mothers and older women.

I wonder if that is because of the mother thing, actually? Once you are past a certain age, there is a strong assumption that you are a mother ('granny' = common term for all older women) and there is a huge set of assumptions that go with that, around sex, being there for others, being selfless, not having a right to your own, self-fulfilling life ... all sorts.

Yy.
The worst thing a woman can do is not be likeable and not spend all her time faffing about endlessly trying to placate people.
It is utterly liberating getting older (I'm 45 yrs) and I couldn't give a shiney shite if anyone approves of what I think. I highly recommend getting older to all women.

Me too. You don't have to restrain yourself. If someone looks at you and thinks eh? it's gorgeously, deliciously, reassuringly, breathtakingly liberating to not fucking care.

I still care, I still desperately want to be liked, but it's getting less.

My pleasure Cat. I am facing the menopause right now so soon I'll be an old crone and no one will take any notice of me. I do think it's really important to notice older women and take account of their experience and the things they've lived through. They don't necessarily know more than younger women about everything but especially the generation above me lived through so much change and so much shit. Not being able to get a mortgage, losing your job if you were pregnant etc.
I've been finding getting older to he quite freeing. I don't give a shit what people think about me anymore. I embrace the way I look. Sometimes I make a bit of a grooming effort but mostly I just want to be comfy. The menopause sucks though

Yes to the anger, I hear it from my friends too. I am not mellowing, quite the opposite. I don't know if motherly is the right word but I feel increasingly protective of young women in general and just furious at the crap that's ahead of them.

I think my anger comes from working with pregnant women and seeing the exact same shit again and again

You're definitely onto something with this thread. How much whatever older women do is denigrated because, well, urgh, it's older women doing it!

But to some extent, until you've lived the experience, you won't/don't/can't know, so each generation has to learn that for themselves. There's so much that we just don't seem able to transmit down generations - except maybe some incremental, tiny shifts. It's a bit depressing really.

Just to repeat what whoput said

The consolation though of getting old is that you don't give a fuck about what people think of you. For example, I get called a TERF? Do I give a shit? No. It's just a silly word. It seems that calling someone 'phobic' is the worst thing you can do to them. Believe me, it isn't.

I'm 44 and most like peri-menopausal. I am going to make this my mantra, I really am.

HAs anyone seen the video of Dawn French talking as she approaches her 60th birthday? (It's to promote a new book, I think)

Leaving aside the "gosh, isn't she old now and looking better than ever!" undertones, she is saying a lot of what pp here are saying: I just can't be bothered with the tedious stuff any more

But to some extent, until you've lived the experience, you won't/don't/can't know, so each generation has to learn that for themselves. There's so much that we just don't seem able to transmit down generations - except maybe some incremental, tiny shifts. It's a bit depressing really.

Yes I think that's the crux of the issue here. And having not experienced it, these young girls don't understand why men have a whole different experience.

Yes I have olenna and I loved it. May also have subconsciously influenced the thread

Link for anyone else who wants to watch

www.bbc.co.uk/news/av/entertainment-arts-41599464/dawn-french-at-60-what-i-ve-learned

Anglo thing?

Abuelas estan las jefes. Por verdad.

Grandmas do rock, but they aren't always taken seriously

Make our future yes maybe more of an Anglo thing. South Spain has very different attitude to old and young alike. food for thought.

Agree that Britain's worse for it. This is from Amy Siskind in US's fantastic twitter thread yesterday:
Picture of younger woman here, but the text makes sense to me.

Yes it’s really no coincidence that you become more feminist as you get older. And that feminists are called hysterical, angry harridans, feminazis, etc.

Yes, mate. The more we get it, the angrier we become, the less we care what you think, and the more that worries you.