Is the silencing and ridicule of older women necessary to keep women in their place?

[QuentinSummers]

On a thread a while back someone (can't remember who, sorry) said they thought there was a deliberate strategy to stop older women talking to and influencing younger women. For example the no-platforming of Germaine Greer.
I've been thinking about it a lot and I agree. I have been thinking about the treatment if Mary Whitehouse as a crank and religious nutter when i was younger - but a lot of her fears have come to pass.
And the recent thread about asexuality - if older women and younger women talked more openly about their sexuality and women's desire, how women's sex lives are over the years, impact of things like hormonal contraception and childbirtg, perhaps it would help younger women understand and be comfortable with themselves. I can't help thinking that all the labels are people trying to assert that they are different to the rather homogenous, masculine, aggressive view of sex that's everywhere at the moment.
Then the other day I heard a BBC presenter describing the White Widow (female terrorist, high value target for the USA, killed in a drone strike) as a ridiculous and rather pathetic figure. Which seemed really incongruous given how much effort the US have put into catching her. And made me wonder if she was being deliberately ridiculed as she was influencing a lot of younger women to join ISIS (It's a distasteful example but really struck me).

Also tied in here are all the younger women who "get on better with men" (I was one of those myself, I am so embarrassed now).

What can we do to build the credibility of older women? I really think it's necessary to help women overall.

Thanks for reading the wall of waffly text

My next cat is going to be called harridan, I've jsut decided

I think I like harridan. And Fury - for start, Furies have female friends.

I'm a Crone.

I think so many women are unfortunately tied to the home in their critical years and their self worth is defined in the context of them being the family centre and not much else. So as they get older their kids move out and start to treat them as uneducated and much adored and indulged 'mum'. With outdated opinions and cute, frivolous thoughts on things. Totally and utterly patronised by their own grown up children. And many of these older mums play along with this 'silly mum who we all adore but is not really a person in her own right'. Unfortunately her world for the last 18yrs has been so focused and tied to looking after the home and family she's also been left behind a bit in challenging who she is and who she wants to be.

So basically my point is that the role of a mother is oppressive. Completely and utterly limiting and forced us into the invisible older lady once the kids leave home and we're left with a narrow world to live in.

Yes agree OP. Most women as they get older realise more, how things really are, and are less afraid to challenge men. So older women have to be silenced, and if they can't silence us, they want others to at least laugh at us.

And I hate the - I prefer men as friends - from a woman. What you are really saying is that you are special, you are an exception, not like other women. You are rejecting women.

Karate It can be that way. But it can also be a time when you have time and space to let your horizons expand.

Brasty, you're right of course. And that's the way it should be.

I agree with a few pp and disagree with the OP

I have been a rad fem since my teens and now 45 and am constantly surprised by how much I am listened to these days.

I probably mean at work most, but I am (sometimes tiringly so) referred to for direction and consultation. I'm very busy on speaking at conferences and the like, and this has only happened since I hit my 40s.

I work in a knowledge based field and have taken time to build up my knowledge and I certainly don't feel ignored. I think I have also worked 'on myself' a lot and do deal with people with respect, integrity and usually some fun so I guess I'm comfortable for people to deal with....not in the laugh along cool girl way (which I have done in my youth)..but like being a nice human way.

So that's in my professional life.

In my personal life I only hang out with good people so they tend to be pretty cool with valuing opinions too....and come to think of it I have quite a few friends in their late 20's / 30's and they don't ignore me either.

I understand your OP but I'm not actually sure its age per se rather than a sex thing

Karate The situation you outline (woman who has children and no other interests/outlets for self-expression) is getting rarer and rarer. Something like 70% of women with dependent children now work outside the home - and that doesn't take into account women with dependent children who work on a voluntary basis and women who return to the workforce when the children are no longer dependent.

Motherhood may indeed result in erasure of personhood but I'm not sure it's as simple as women finding their only means of self-realisation through their children, then being left with nothing when the children are no longer dependent.

I think the theorisation of the invisibility of older women and society's attitude(s) towards mothers is under-theorised if we stick with this model of mothers being only mothers. The fact is that many/most women with children work outside the home now, which leads us into a different sort of terrain: a. the identity of women-who-are-mothers is multiple, meaning that women may find themselves empowered in one aspect of their identity, at certian points; disempowered at other points and b. I suspect that some of the issues around invisibility and older women may have a complex relaitonship to work, motherhood and multiple demands on time.

Or if it's just a 'we are no longer in the mating game' thing

If it's that, we are talking about being ignored and so not getting creeps hitting on you or men beeping their horns? I'm fine with being ignored in that way

Mooncup, you became an authority on something. Many women don't have anything to be valued for outside the home so are patronised and treated as invisible by society.

Yes most women do not get invited to speak at conferences

I'm not sure if that's a dig karate, but I'll presume not.

I've lived a rad fem life, that's true, where I've never relied on a man, put a value on my potential to earn even when having children, yes, but that doesn't mean I haven't suffered sexism.

What has been interesting is that ONLY now I'm older have I been getting opportunities that men got years ago.

I understand that women have made different choices and are viewed differently. Guess I saw that coming somehow and always maintained autonomy and I have probably pissed off a few women who I've encouraged not to give up their jobs for men.

But I wonder if this is not a sex thing, for the reasons we are saying. I'm not sure there is much respect/time given for a man who hasn't worked either.

I may change my name to KarlosKKrinkelkrone
Has a certain ring to it I feel

Jesus no mooncup! I'm impressed by your achievements.

"Completely and utterly limiting and forced us into the invisible older lady once the kids leave home and we're left with a narrow world to live in."
Gosh. Are you, perhaps, generalizing a bit?

I wouldn't say I wanted some recognition for 'achievements' here just that I have been very surprised that I am suddenly taken more seriously after years of disadvantage.

I actually feel guilty for it, truth be known. It gives me a real insight to how privilege works...I'm viewed as a white educated middle class women (a safe option for diversity) and I certainly can see I have an advantage over black women for example, and it doesn't feel too good.

Yep, sorry Bert. Or possibly focusing on people I know. It's recently been on my mind and worrying me. So my opinion is pretty subjective right now on this.

Mooncuplanding "But I wonder if this is not a sex thing, for the reasons we are saying. I'm not sure there is much respect/time given for a man who hasn't worked either."

I wonder this, too. It leads me to think about the anger many men now have at finding they a. suddenly don't have an automatic entitlement to be heard just because they are men, b. have to sometimes listen to women - and older women at that, and c. why it still takes women about 10 years longer to achieve the credit/status that an equivalent man gets.

Very interesting that you have brought insight and reflection (on the subjects of gender, sex, and privilege,) on your journey with you.

Karate The absence of a multiplicity of embedded cultural narratives about women's lives (and that's lives, rather than 'points in life',) is one effect of cultural sidelining/silencing, and one reason it feels so often as though we reinvent the wheel again and again and again.

In a way, all of us have to begin from subjective experience, then cast around for whatever we can find (including other women on mumsnet) to try and make a world, rather than a single story.

Does anyone watch a news programme called Beyond 100 Days? The presenters are an older woman and a younger man and she is most definitely the lead. Great programme by the way......

That's great to hear mooncup. Maybe I am over generalizing

Bertrand I haven't seen it - I'll look out for it.

Mooncup and Quentin It's good to hear a range of experiences, perhaps? It tells us what we know: old and older women shouldn't be stereotyped (which is what 'silencing' does: it allows other people to write a narrow representation of us) - and is part of what is so annoying when people start telling us 'about' old and older women. Maybe?

I agree re the stereotyping. I was terrified of getting older and being ignored but as I say I have been surprised by the opposite happening. Can't say I was particularly prepared for it though and it is all a bit weird because of the stereotype we are discussing here.

I am also grateful for the women who are older than me forging the way - I meet many women in their 50's and 60's in good powerful positions, I am sure it was harder for them to not be ignored (and there are still more men of course but at least there are some women)

But as I said before, I am 'easy' - white, middle class, educated. I am very sure it is not so easy for all women, and I do think I am benefiting from privilege in that sense. And I never thought I would say that!

Capitalism probably has more to answer for this ignored feeling rather than direct sexism imo. We are based worthy on our economic contribution?