Ian Duncan-smith says unmarried men are a problem for society

[QuentinSummers]

m.huffpost.com/uk/entry/uk_59d3b8f9e4b04b9f92054af5
Seems to me there are undertones that women should be controlling men better.

Also quite a lot of blatant sexism such as men who aren't married develop "low value for women" which suggests to me that the value women hold is intrinsicly linked to their chastity/marriageability to ID'S

Interested to hear what others think because I'm being a bit inarticulate on this.

Of course you're right - of course it was all nonsense. I meant the nonsense had a currency and it no longer has. Capitalism has been stripped of it's myths.

No gentlemanjohn, straight white men can no longer step on the necks of women and minorities and they're mad about it. Women never needed to have the myths revealed - they never applied to us in the first place.

Well, maybe - but are you saying that the solution is for women to step on people's necks instead?

Do you mean capitalistic power? Or equality?

Do you want power Sparrowhawk? Answer honestly.

So true sparrowhawk. Mediocre men used only to have to compete with more competent men so they were still guaranteed a job and a salary and a pension and a wife who was financially dependent and at his tender mercy. There is a certain type of man who is so angry that now he needs to compete with women too, and that in some arenas, women have a shot. The odds are still stacked in men's favour (example, employers still hold parenthood against women not men) but it infuriates mediocre men that women get 'their' jobs.

And the myths of neoliberalism very much applied to women. It was capitalism that offered you a way out of the home. You could work, get ahead, have a career, be ambitious, make money, lean in, break the glass ceiling, bust some balls in the boardroom, don those shoulder pads - that's all part of the myth. You can't just detach women and feminism from the myth. It might have been a false myth, but lots of women have evidently fallen for it.

Loquacious do you think its is a good thing that people compete for success?

Nancy Fraser says what I am trying to say so much better:

www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2013/oct/14/feminism-capitalist-handmaiden-neoliberal

Gentlemanjohn, why ask me that? it doesn't matter what I think, personally I'm not competitive and competition makes me perform worse not better, I wither rather than flourish in a competitive arena. But I don't hate men for being in the arena, I accept that they're there and don't question their right to be there. Sexist men (who like me don't like competition) are angry with women for being in 'the race' at all.

The type of man who wins that race hardly cares whether women are in the race or not. He will win anyway. On his merit and also because even if a woman is level pegging with him, he'll be perceived to be the safer bet. Parenthood not an issue. His assertiveness will be understood to be assertiveness pure and simple.

Loquacious, if a labour market is a 'race' or a competition then there will be winners and there will be losers. That's the nature of a competition.

In the past, the men were mainly the winners because they were the only ones in the race - and there was full employment virtually, so strictly speaking it was less of a race. Now we all we, men and women, have to compete with one another for a livelihood.

In terms of gender, there are three possible prospects.

1. Men are predominantly the winners.
2. Women become the predominant winners and men more often the losers.
3. There are roughly the same number of male and female winners and losers.
4. We think of another system which isn't a competition and there aren't any losers.

What would be your preference?

And I hate to break this to you, but the people who win the race in the capitalist system very rarely do so on the basis of merit. They win because they went to a posh school, are well-connected or are just plain ruthless.

Again, a obfuscating with questions.

what about 5) women bear not more than 50% of the responsibility of parenthood. Enforceable parenthood until it becomes a social norm and employers have no logical reason to discriminate (of course that would take a long, long time to go away).

6. unskilled labour that is traditionally female is valued as highly as unskilled labour that is traditionally preferred by men. So instead of men saying ''well there's nothing to stop you driving a lorry'' we live in a world where for example being a carer is valued equally to being a lorry driver.

enforceable paternity leave I meant to say.

You cannot have 5 and 6 without my 4. Otherwise there will be losers in the competition - people, whether men or women, doing shit jobs and while having to look after kids.

You can't have the benefits of capitalism without others suffering.

Completely agree with you about carers. It's a disgrace how they are treated. They should be paid a high page and have better working conditions. That will mean the winners have to accept a tax hike.

What do you mean you hate to break it to me?

There can be any number of races but at the moment men are winning them all because even if the race I choose is one that suits my skills, those skills are perceived to be less valuable because they are traditionally female.

Not sure what you think I should be agreeing with.

It doesn't matter which skills are valued, the race will always be rigged. There will never ever be a race based on merit. If it was one run by women it would be exactly the same. It would just mean more privileged and aggressive women succeed over others.

There is no pure meritocracy. It doesn't exist and it never will exist.

I'm saying there is something fundamentally wrong with an economy framed as a competition.

Just because there is no such thing as a flawless meritocracy doesn't mean that you shouldn't remove the obvious inequalities.

At the moment women are facing obstacles on all sides. As I've said before but it's a massive issue for women, women are really made responsible for continuing the species. Having children is seen by many men as a lifestyle choice. Not only that but less privileged, supported and educated women are quite literally cornered out of the workplace (due to low wages as a result of their skills being undervalued because they are traditionally female). I had this discussion on a thread a few days ago and a man who believed he was 'logical' no doubt told me that men deserved to be paid more in the factory because they were stronger and did more dangerous work. So he was arguing on the one hand that men be rewarded in the workplace for their physiology (moving boxes well) but women be penalised for theirs (bearing children) and yet, this genius denied the pay gap while he was at it. You couldn't make it up but his comment was liked by hundreds of men.

This is what women are up against. So obviously it's grand for men to shrug and say ah but sure there's no such thing as a fair race you know.

Right, I need to sleep. I need my wits about me tomorrow.

ACtually, in fields such as hairdressing and cooking that draw more women, men who enter those fields often benefit from positive discrimination. They end up being celebrity chefs or celebrity hairdressers. They don't struggle to get ahead in a traditionally female field because they are male.

And even if women were competing only against women, that wouldn't be less fair. They'd be better than some women and not as good as others but they'd all be women, so they would all benefit from the same positive biases of their sex or all suffer the same negative biases of their sex.

Loquacious, I am a man. I work in a supermarket on the checkouts. I have applied for 117 jobs over the past year and attended 22 interviews. This was all I could get. I have to eat on 30 pounds a week. Where is my male privilege?

I would love to be a stay at home parent. To me this sounds like an impossibly privileged situation, and the reason lots of working class women are choosing to do is that it is now the better alternative. What would you rather do? Work in McDonald's or stay at home with the kids?

More and more men are doing part-time, low paid work while for women the trend is the opposite.

www.hrmagazine.co.uk/article-details/dramatic-rise-in-men-in-low-paid-part-time-work

Young women are now earning more than young men.

money.cnn.com/2016/04/12/pf/gender-pay-gap/index.html

And male unemployment is higher.

www.newstatesman.com/blogs/economics/2012/05/why-isnt-male-unemployment-issue

Ah I see. So you're one of the men who didn't get to step on any necks and you're mad about it John? And you think being financially dependent on someone who can rape you while you raise his children and wash his socks is 'privilege'?

Also you don't seem to understand the concept of male privilege.

ah! I get it too now. You're a mediocre male and you're mad at women for looking for jobs.

Well I also applied for at least a hundred jobs between Jan and Aug and now I have one. I also have two kids and their father takes 0% of the responsibility! Men can do this. I know in my case 0% and 100% is an extremely unequal share of the responsibilities and sacrifices of parenthood but there you go. I found a job in the end. A job that pays a bit but not more than minimum wage and I know I'm lucky to have it.

All the time men deny male privilege with the response ''what about suicide, is that a male privilege?''. 1) what about rape and sexual assault is that a female privilege

Just because you're working in a supermarket doesn't mean that there's no male privilege.

And you think being financially dependent on someone who can rape you while you raise his children and wash his socks is 'privilege'?

Absolutely. Absolutely. Absolutely.

Read this again and again John.

A version of this happened to me when I was a sahm. I lay there feeeling so repulsed by the odiousness of the man that tears rolled down my cheek and he didn't even bother to ask what was wrong because he. did. not. care. And the next day I tidied his house and made his dinner and looked after his kids. And I'm not alone. I escaped thank God. And thank God I did escape because about 2 women a week are killed by their 'partner' another female privilege.

BTW John, I have stayed at home with the kids and I would much rather work in McDonalds. You have to be a total idiot to think that having a paid job where you serve food and clear tables is easier than being at home with small children earning nothing. I was a SAHM for 3 years and it was awful.