Meet the Other Phone. A phone that grows with your child.

Meet the Other Phone.
A phone that grows with your child.

Buy now

Please or to access all these features

Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Ian Duncan-smith says unmarried men are a problem for society

603 replies

QuentinSummers · 04/10/2017 08:01

m.huffpost.com/uk/entry/uk_59d3b8f9e4b04b9f92054af5
Seems to me there are undertones that women should be controlling men better.

Also quite a lot of blatant sexism such as men who aren't married develop "low value for women" which suggests to me that the value women hold is intrinsicly linked to their chastity/marriageability to ID'S

Interested to hear what others think because I'm being a bit inarticulate on this.

OP posts:
ImogenTubbs · 08/10/2017 03:28

The whole article, and speech, is so spectacularly badly worded that I can't quite figure out quite to what he is actually referring. Rather than an honest look at the impact poverty has on society, it's some weird rant about golf clubs and cohabiting. I mean, I know I'm not his target audience, but sheeesh.

Gentlemanjohn · 08/10/2017 03:49

Do you know who I hate NoLoveofMine? The only people who I hate - really truly hate - are people who molest children.

Anyone who so much as touches a child in order to gain sexual gratification should be killed.

Otherwise, I don't hate anyone. Least of all someone I have never met.

ImogenTubbs · 08/10/2017 09:29

Way to derail the thread, guys. Hmm

QuentinSummers · 08/10/2017 09:31

It's ok imogen. Anything even tangentially related to politics and John is in there, blaming feminism for the downfall of society and the rise of capitalism. I just try to ignore it.

OP posts:
Gentlemanjohn · 08/10/2017 09:35

No, that's fair. Not blaming feminism - just saying a particular strain of right-wing feminism is part of the problem. There are many feminisms, as is repeatedly pointed out on here.

NoLoveofMine · 08/10/2017 09:44

I contributed to the thread being derailed - sorry to everyone and especially Quentin. I'm going to report my posts for deletion as they were derailing and possibly broke guidelines but still find that poster quite unpleasant and they are clearly here to derail and attack women.

Popchyk · 08/10/2017 09:44

IDS never has anything to say about Boris and his children who were conceived while he was married to somebody else.

I'd have a lot more respect for him if he came out and said "Marriage is valuable to society and here we have tossers like Boris pissing all over it. Here is a prime example of a man of low value".

But he won't. Much easier and safer for him to blame poor people. The actions of a coward.

QuentinSummers · 08/10/2017 09:50

Well in my opinion the problem is the Conservative party/capitalism not valuing caring as work. It suited them to encourage women to work as more growth/more consumers. And It is clearly much better for women's self esteem and overall happiness to be a visible, productive member of society with financial independence than to be invisible.
At that time (60s/70s) the baby boomers were just coming to working age and we had contraception so there were lots of working age people and fewer elderly abd children.
Now of course we have more elderly and fewer working age as that bulge works through. And suddenly the fact care work is invisible and unvalued is being shown as the issue it is. Rather than trying to attach value to caring as work, the Conservatives blame "people" (by which they mean women") for being selfish and uncaring. IDS speech is another example of trying to blame women for societies ills. And that's what you do too john.
We need to have an adult conversation as a society about how to function, one that treats humans equally, instead of all this rubbish about what women and men "should" be doing.

www.google.co.uk/amp/www.mirror.co.uk/news/politics/tory-minister-says-brits-selfish-11297206.amp

OP posts:
BananaShit · 08/10/2017 10:05

I'd have a lot more respect for him if he came out and said "Marriage is valuable to society and here we have tossers like Boris pissing all over it. Here is a prime example of a man of low value".

Absolutely!

Although it's always going to be difficult for a Tory to come out and say that because memories of the 90s sleaze haven't faded. The top brass don't seem to be shagging their secretaries and producing love children at quite such a rate these days, but the way they were in the 90s, it's going to take a long time for the idea of them as the sleazy party to stop existing. I expect he also doesn't want to tempt fate like Major with his Victorian values!

Popchyk · 08/10/2017 10:09

I agree with you, Quentin.

There are always MPs calling for women people to stop being selfish and take care of their elderly parents. Here's another:

David Mowat MP

None of them seem to want to give up their many jobs in order to provide this care themselves though.

What they mean of course is that women should do the caring. For free.

Gentlemanjohn · 08/10/2017 10:26

Quentin, you raise some good points. However, capitalism is never going to value 'caring work' - whether inside or outside the home. Why would it? The goal of capitalism is the maximisation of capital: nothing more, nothing less. Women were not valued in the home, and now they (along with male carers) are not valued as occupational carers - paid a mere pittance and often made to work punishing shifts with few breaks. What else can we expect from such a system?

However, capitalism does not require women to be confined to the home anymore. It did when there was lots of manual labour to be performed by men; but now that's all gone, it is more more profitable for women to be workforce participants. It is indeed rich for IDS to be blaming feminism for destroying the family. In truth, neo-liberals like Margaret Thatcher did more to destroy the family than feminists and baby boomer radicals could ever have done. She ripped apart who industrial communities, removing the bedrock and source of income on which families depended. Women flooded into the work place -
which of course on one level was good - but it was not to participate in a more equal and caring society. Rather, they were encouraged to be individualist careerists, competing for all the money and power that was formerly in the possession of men. Since then male employment has gone into decline as female employment has rose. Another way of putting it would be to say that capitalism has played men and women off against each other while someone laughs their way to the bank. Capitalism came first and co-opted feminism and liberationism, from which it could make a fast buck through no end of make-up, clothes, raunch culture and pornography to be indulged in by the 'liberated' female worker-consumer.

The other issue is the sexual revolution. By this I mean the joint enterprise of the liberal left and libertarian right which aimed to destroy monogamy and family as moral pillars of society. Some of their intentions were good, as there was of course much that was positive about the sexual revolution: but they never thought what to put in place of what they were destroying. In the resultant moral vacuum grew a commodified market in which people - and women in particular - were gradually demoted to disposable instruments of pleasure.

The central ethic of sexual liberation is that of consent. As long as no third parties are affected, there is no “morality”, only an agreed procedure for individuals to decide “what is right for them” – whatever that might be. This radical individualism underpinned the demands of the sexual liberation movements of the 1960s and 1970s. We have to ask, is this precisely also the logic of capitalism – calculative agents engaging in selfish transactions in a deregulated market place?

Despite its positive aspects, there is a right-wing side to the sexual revolution, where human bodies become goods in a marketplace, and where survival of the sexiest promotes injustice and discrimination rather than fighting against it. Without love and family as governing concepts, there is nothing to glue society together but money and power. Not all feminists are against the family, but many rallied behind the concept of sexual deregulation; the 'zipless fuck' a source of empowerment. Women could be sexually brutal and selfish too, they thought, and this, they naively thought, would bring equality.

In the liberated sexual culture, people cease to be multi-dimensional human beings to whom love is fealty are pledged within a framework of obligations, but instruments of sexual pleasure with market value. Sexual liberationists presume the same level playing-field of ‘equality of opportunity’ as their laissez-faire counterparts on the New Right.
Yet no matter how much makeup is used, or hours are spent at the gym, there are irreducible differences between the sexual attractiveness of people. Therefore sexual deregulation has increased the ability of attractive people to exploit unattractive people. Therefore, the sexual revolution has the equivalent of economic 'collateral': abused women, the unattractive, the exploited, the victimised, the teenage girls starving themselves to death.

Furthermore, the modern sexual consumer, like any consumer, becomes easily bored, and requires harder thrills. Therefore it is perfectly logical that pornography becomes more an more violent and depraved, and acts that were once considered deviant are normalised. Whatever was wrong with the family, it provided a bulwark against the public expression of these impulses. The real children of the 1960's are Charles Manson and all the ritualistic serial killers of the ensuing decades.

Some on both the left and conservative right believe that this moral collapse can be reversed. However, exchange value has triumphed over love, and there will soon be no non-monetizable aspects of life left. We are seeing the end of love as a foundational principle of private relations.

Humpty Dumpty sat on a wall,
Humpty Dumpty had a big fall.
All the king's horses and all the king's men
Couldn't put Humpty together again.

reflexfaith · 08/10/2017 10:48

Could you provide a tldr for that post please Gentlemanjohn

reflexfaith · 08/10/2017 10:55

Honestly I tried to read it but my eyes just sort of glazed over
So kind of you to put all that time and effort into writing such a long post to educate us on here

Gentlemanjohn · 08/10/2017 11:01

What is a tldr?

Gentlemanjohn · 08/10/2017 11:05

I am expressing my view of things and, yes, hoping that some people take some of it into consideration. You don't have to though. If you find it boring, just ignore it. Why bother to waste your time saying 'my eyes glazed over'? Or even better, if you disagree, tell me what precisely you disagree with - try and convince everyone I'm wrong. Do your worst. Or as I say, don't bother.

QuentinSummers · 08/10/2017 11:10

john why shouldn't women have as much sexual agency as men? Especially where no chance of pregnancy?

OP posts:
Gentlemanjohn · 08/10/2017 11:21

They should have as much sexual agency as men. It should have been the case that men should have lost sexual agency rather than women gained it.

I'm not sure about the concept of sexual agency. Does this mean women should be free to do all the bad things men do? Have affairs? Use people to satisfy their own selfish desires? Lie? Cheat? Predate on young boys? Obviously not. Sex has to occur within an moral framework. The old moral framework favoured men: it said that a man could callously and brutally have sex with lots of women, but if a woman did the same she was a 'whore' or a 'slut'. This was of course dreadful and misogynist. But the answer is not that women should not then be able to behave in all the bad ways men did; it should rather be that is frowned upon for both men and women to behave in such ways.

Equality is men and women being held to exactly the same ethical standards.

Lancelottie · 08/10/2017 11:21

I had a go (I've been known to read textbooks on concrete for a living, FGS), but god it's turgid stuff.

A couple of points:
Yes, women like to be paid for their work. Why not? Not many men volunteer to work for free.

I really don't think 'raunch culture and pornography' are mostly bought by newly liberated women in the work place.

Errmm... the rest of the rant defeats me. I think I'll go and look up some more facts about concrete.

Gentlemanjohn · 08/10/2017 11:22

However if by sexual agency you simply mean contraceptive sex without the risk of pregnancy, then that's obviously a good thing. Didn't suggest otherwise.

Gentlemanjohn · 08/10/2017 11:30

It's not about women wanting to be paid for work, it's a case of women....actually, forget women here, this is just people generally...subscribing to an ideology of market competition and identifying empowerment with individualised material success. This is the ideology of late capitalism. There are lots of other possible economic cultures in which people would receive a wage for their labour which are not predicated on greed, ambition and competition. Have you not heard of socialism or social democracy? In such a system gender equality and a well-paid female workforce could be possible without rampant individualism and vast economic inequality. Or do you not think? In fact, I don't know how else feminist ideals of high-waged part-time work for both sexes can be effectuated in anything other than some sort of socialist system.

Lancelottie · 08/10/2017 11:34

Right. So, your point about unmarried men was...?

Gentlemanjohn · 08/10/2017 11:36

It was more about IDS's hypocrisy in blaming the left for the disintegration of the nuclear family.

reflexfaith · 08/10/2017 12:04

I've been known to read textbooks on concrete for a living, FGS
He he, well I could probably wade through it if there was a financial reward, but otherwise I just can't be arsed
After all I'm working for free for Mumsnet just being here and looking at the adverts😄

reflexfaith · 08/10/2017 12:07

I don't know how else feminist ideals of high-waged part-time work for both sexes can be effectuated in anything other than some sort of socialist system
Don't be silly ....soon algorithms will do all the work for us

Gentlemanjohn · 08/10/2017 12:09

Don't be silly ....soon algorithms will do all the work for us!

Ah yes, then will come the three day week and the flying cars. Can hardly wait. ;)