Ian Duncan-smith says unmarried men are a problem for society

[QuentinSummers]

m.huffpost.com/uk/entry/uk_59d3b8f9e4b04b9f92054af5
Seems to me there are undertones that women should be controlling men better.

Also quite a lot of blatant sexism such as men who aren't married develop "low value for women" which suggests to me that the value women hold is intrinsicly linked to their chastity/marriageability to ID'S

Interested to hear what others think because I'm being a bit inarticulate on this.

Ah I see. So you're one of the men who didn't get to step on any necks and you're mad about it John? And you think being financially dependent on someone who can rape you while you raise his children and wash his socks is 'privilege'?

No. I don't want to step on anyone's neck. Or rape anyone. That's really offensive.

Loquacious: your suggestion that people cannot get jobs are 'mediocre' betrays how right-wing Tory some of your assumptions are. All those 'mediocre' men on the streets or on the dole who just didn't have what it takes in the race eh? That's pure 'Get on your bike' Thatcherism.

But let me tell you both this. I would be perfectly happen to live in a matriarchy completely run by women so long as I have a reasonable job, affordable healthcare, and affordable rent. Why should this involve wanting to step on anyone's neck?

Furthermore, if I am a white man with male privilege, why do I not have any? Why does the man on the street not have any?

I agree. I have actually worked in mcdonalds too!

I got paid and clocked out at mcdonalds

It's a matter of perspective.

Personally, I would rather be a SAHD than do most of the jobs I have had to do. I was bullied, subject to undue surveillance, made to work long shifts with very brief breaks. I found it degrading, exhausting and humiliating and would much rather do something of enormous value like raise a child. My job in care literally made me mentally ill. This one isn't much better.

It is not their being unemployed that makes me brand them mediocre john n it is their fear of competing with women. THAT is what makes those particular men mediocre because let's face it, men who win in an all male environment have little to fear from women hired who will be held to a higher account and paid 70% as much if they are lucky. They'll be called bitches if they win sufficiently.

No mediocrity applies to the man who only won a job at all, who only got in to 5he race at all because half of the competition wasnt considered due to their sex.

That is a mediocre man. And he is the one who will deny male privilege most vociferously

I only mean mediocre in the work force btw.
I dont mean as a human being.

I found it degrading, exhausting and humiliating and would much rather do something of enormous value like raise a child.

It's not considered to be of enormous value by society though, only by the individual. You only have to see the scorn towards SAHMs who are 'non contributors' 'freeloaders' etc on any thread here where it's discussed. I've even seen them labelled as prostitutes.

But even worse, sometimes those who are most full of hatred for women in unpaid roles are exactly the same mediocre men referred to upthread. They often want a wife and children, but they don't want women competing with them in the workplace and they don't want women staying at home and looking after children either because that's lazy. So what do they want? A wealthy heiress? I suppose it worked for IDS...

OK, I see where you're coming from, but in a way your logic would extend to the homeless, guy.

Picture the white, male, straight homeless guy. If he has all this privilege why is he in this situation? There are two conclusions.

1. He's got this male privilege but he somehow hasn't bothered to use it, which is very close to saying he deserves to be where he is.

2. Male privilege - or any of these other types of identitarian privilege -
   do not fully explain the unequal distribution of power in the world and there is something else going on.

Which is it?

It's not considered to be of enormous value by society though, only by the individual.

Raising a child is valued less by society than working in MacDonald's or Sports Direct? That's not true. Blatantly not.

Male privilege is as a group, not down to specific individuals. Of course a middle class white woman whose parents encouraged and supported her is in a better position than a white man who was the abused child of drug addicts and spent his childhood in foster care. That's common sense.

Raising a child is valued less by society than working in MacDonald's or Sports Direct? That's not true. Blatantly not.

I disagree. I've never seen someone who works in Sports Direct be accused of exchanging sexual favours for a roof over their head. Or undeserving of a pension in their old age.

Yeah, the probably are men who think like that but I don't know any in the supermarket where I work.

I would give anything to swap what I do for looking after a child. I love children. I hate performing a mindlessly repetitive task under strip-lights for hour after hour, week after week, year after year - my back pain getting worse, my depression getting worse.

Why do you get to set 1) or 2)

You don't acknowledge the issues so you can't sum up.

Our enemy is the 1%.

Our systems are broken.

Together we can change things in time. Just.

If we don't we face a future of horrors.

Gentleman john if you want to go in to childcare then do that.
Ironically it would be paid more if traditionally female work was valu3d as highly as traditionally male work. But you might find it more rewarding than you find your current life.

I disagree. I've never seen someone who works in Sports Direct be accused of exchanging sexual favours for a roof over their head. Or undeserving of a pension in their old age.

Yeah poor women have a terrible time, but many people in low wage work are victimised, sexually and otherwise. And one zero hours in Sports Direct has a pension. The ones who do get one opt out because it's so measly.

Furthermore, parenthood is an identity. Working in MacDonalds is not.

What do employers say to say to mutinous employees? 'You''ll be flipping burgers if you're not careful' - not 'you'll be a stay at home parent if you're not careful'.

Why do you get to set 1) or 2)
You don't acknowledge the issues so you can't sum up.

That's a dodge. Any unknown issues are covered by 3.

Gentlemanjohn, you are not taking any of the points that women have made on board. You have no idea about many of the prejudices and issues women face. It's very clear. And pretty obnoxious considering this is the FEMINISM board. As pp said, you could go into childcare as a job if you wanted what you perceive as a more rewarding role. Or any number of alternative roles.

Privilege as a concept only works as part of class analysis. Women as a class and men as a class. It's often meaningless at different times when you try to apply it at the individual level. But think of it like this, the existence of Barack Obama does not negate that black people experience racism. Just like women experience sexism.

Because there is almost no way out of the position we are in.

I think if we quickly develop fusion reactors we will have a chance. But that is, by all accounts, probably not going to happen. Absent that, we cannot get away from petroleum. Resource wars will happen. They are happening.

The developing world cannot reach the Western ideal. The numbers don't work. And the West cannot continue, and will not continue, at present levels of lifestyle.

Capitalism has put us in a position with almost no way out. Our only slim hope is that we can work together and squeeze every ounce of potential out of our population.

john why have you bought up male privilege? Why have you derailed my thread into yet another chat about why your life is so awful and ours are so great? I really don't get why you hang about on here. It's frustrating for us to be derailed all the time and must be frustrating for you that we aren't sympathetic.

Ok, forget about me and my life. Think about the man on the street.Is he there becuse he is too lazy to use his male privilege?

I'm saying that feminism has become increasingly right-wing, individualist and entirely focused on material success.

For instance, this argument about McDonald's. It cannot be allowed to continue to exist. Cheap beef is killing us.

I'm saying that feminism has become increasingly right-wing, individualist and entirely focused on material success

Society has and so some feminists no doubt have also moved in that direction.
Feminism as a whole, no. That's bollocks.

Makeourfuture is just as bad.

Oh look, the FutureBot is back.