DEBATE NOT HATE: WE NEED TO TALK ABOUT GENDER

[blackistheneworange]

Sorry if this is on here already but just seen it on twitter.

It's this Wednesday in Brighton which may be too short notice for me but you can book here. www.eventbrite.co.uk/e/debate-not-hate-we-need-to-talk-about-gender-tickets-38129665857/amp

We experience events like that one at Brighton as repressive, trying to shut us out of the only way of being ourselves which society tolerates

Cross post - but don't you see that biological women experience the resistance to permitting debate or concerns about the impact on them to be even discussed, as equally repressive, shutting them out of their experience of themselves, appropriating their experiences, their language, their way of being themselves?

And incidentally, the biological women involved in both the first meeting at speakers corner and Brighton experienced massive social media threats specifically stating they should be punched, 'fucked up', bloodied, raped and murdered, and one experienced actual violence, assault and theft. I have never seen any mention or suggestion of threat or violence against TRAs from those women.

This is massive misogeny. This is flinging women's rights back into the dark ages. This is threat, intimidation, violence, the bringing of male violence openly and publically into women's spaces to shut them up and make battering them socially acceptable if they don't do as they're told, shut up and get out of the way. Biological women are not going to accept this after centuries of fighting their way out of this, out of sympathy for a very small percentage of the population born male who feel they are entitled.

clare

Are you able to come back and address these different concerns?

You say you want to create a better way. What way is that?

Until there is some kind of test devised where women can tell a harmless man, from a violent thug, from a fetishist, what would a 'better way' look like?

In my experience nice, decent men do not want to make women feel uncomfortable. They go out of their way not to. So we are left with those who do. Or don't care.

What is the better way?

Biological women are not going to accept this after centuries of fighting their way out of this, out of sympathy for a very small percentage of the population born male who feel they are entitled.

Just to be clear, I was specifically referencing the TRA factions who put forward this violent narrative, and not transwomen in general. I do appreciate Clare that you condemned the violence at Speaker's Corner, it was very concerning that only Stonewall was prepared as an LGBT group to do the same. Even more worrying, I've seen screen shots of tweets that trans groups rang around telling LGBT groups NOT to condemn that violence.

@MaximumVolume I am in the Labour Party too. Should I go to the women's forum meeting this evening, before the constituency party meeting? Decisions, decisions...

It is an extremely long road before children get puberty blockers. Children need to identify as trans before a lot of what is culturally seen as cross-gender behaviour can be tolerated. So there is an answer: work not against transition, but for cross-gender behaviour. A friend of a friend was deeply distressed at her child identifying as trans, but if the mother objects, trans becomes a teenage rebellion thing. If the mother gives boundaries- you must see NHS doctors and not get hormones elsewhere, yes I will buy you a binder- the child has responsibility for the decision, and might talk to the mother about it. A binder is really uncomfortable, and the child might just decide not to wear it.

Challenge gender-enforcing behaviour in schools. Did you see "No more boys and girls"? The teacher called boys "mate" and girls "love". He decided to stop. He saw the value of stopping.

If radical feminists are right that gender dysphoria is cultural, and not linked to my being "really" in some way "a woman", it will melt away as people subvert gender. So, don't treat us as the problem. The problem of trans will take care of itself. IF we can transition more easily, we won't be so desperate about it. It won't be such a big deal. We transition because we are desperate. I agonised about it for years before doing it.

I find "non-binary" a far more liberating concept than trans. Someone non-binary claims the right not to conform to gender norms, but find their own way. People will see what the culture offers and harmful choices will become rarer.

ClareFlourish

That's very interesting and it's good that you question gender. Nonetheless, it's an intellectual exercise, that although useful, is not getting to the heart of the disagreement.

Gender is indeed harmful, but people cannot change sex and basing law on gender rather than sex is dangerous.

We can all discuss how unhelpful gender is, but in the meantime, violent men are threatening women with rape and death and are attacking them in public.

People who support the upcoming law are allowing these very men unfettered access to their victims.

What do you think women should do?

So there is an answer: work not against transition, but for cross-gender behaviour.

That is a sensible response, which I agree with and until recently had always advocated. But the recent explosion in trans-identifying children deeply worries me - not because they are trans, but because they might not be - because the TRA side of things seems to be pushing social and medical transition more and more, and pushing for it to be easier for kids to get hormones than it is at present. The idea is to stop them going through the "wrong" puberty because, if a child says they are trans, then they definitely are. I can't go along with that. I only wish that my concerns about transing children could be addressed by simply working in favour of cross-gender behaviour. That would be wonderful.

I'm struck by the things you say about trans becoming a rebellion, about the child not wearing a binder due to discomfort. Those things suggest that you, also, believe that a child stating they are trans might desist in the future? If so, that is exactly what I think. My fear is that children may transition before they are old enough to fully think it through. But that is what TRAs are advocating.

Clare you're preaching to the converted re. gender.

But Datun is right. What should women do?

I’m still confused about what you think our aims are?

As society is, people transition. We will continue to do so while the gender norms exist. We are traumatised by the experience of trying to fit them. Transition is liberation.

I can totally see why transition is liberation for you, and for many trans people as individuals. But people stepping out of one gender prison into a different one that fits them better only reinforces those prisons. It's not the way towards the gender free society that both you and gender critical feminists want.
There is another way, the way of living authentically as you are without the pretence that you are the opposite sex.

@Datun

We have a common interest, in ending the link of sex to gender.

In any conflict, there are extremists and moderates. I want moderates to cautiously reach out to each other and build trust. Can we reduce fear? Can we lower the temperature?

On facebook trans support groups, I challenged those justifying the assault on Maria MacLaughlin. I barely tweet at all but I have tweeted to challenge violent threats against a female detransitioner.

Clare
I’ve just spent some time reading some of the posts on your blog.* I feel that you are genuinely a good person who is working hard to understand and document what you and other trans people are going though.*

Like in every situation, though, there are good eggs and there are bad eggs.* The trouble is that the bad eggs in the TA camp seem to be some of the most violent, misogynistic, self-entitled people I’ve ever come across.* This group have a disproportionate amount of influence - this is what we women are most worried about.

Look at this image (from Lily Maynard’s twitter feed) of what young girls are doing to their bodies under the influence of this ideology and try to convince us that what is already happening to young girls and boys is right and good.**

Oh ffs! My formatting gremlins are having a field day.

I didn’t mean to shout at you ; )

clare

How can we reduce fear and lower the temperature, if you view any debate as repressive?

I understand, totally, that you think violence is wrong.

But you saying that on here isn't going to make the slightest bit of difference.

Transwomen like you really need to stand up and say not in my name.

You need to get behind women for a third space option for people who are trans.

I understand that you disagree with the violence and threats, but unless you support women, you are still part of the problem.

I want moderates to cautiously reach out to each other and build trust. Can we reduce fear? Can we lower the temperature?

Great! Good plan. What might that look like? What compromises might be a good starting point to work from? What achievements would you most like to see?

And frankly, the debate in Brighton, which I attended, said pretty much everything you have said about gender.

The only other part was where women disagree that you can change sex and that male people should be given female rights and access to women. Is that the bit you find repressive?

There was also a whole section on children. Again, you would have agreed with a lot of it.

(Just as an aside, this is really showing me how much the waters are muddied in this discussion by deliberately slippery semantics and concepts being twisted by extremists. I appreciate Clare and her willingness to engage.)

clare

The other question I have is this. If it's all about gender roles, as you say, and a need to express ourselves without incurring negative reactions from other people, why bother with surgery?

Datun, I can't speak for clare, but I've just had this question answered by a friend who is a trans man. He says that he has suffered from severe body dysphoria all his life. Since he began socially presenting as masculine, he finds that the dysphoria has eased, and he has achieved something approaching an equilibrium. So for him, the dysphoria is very much about how he is perceived. He says that, if he had a consistent social circle, this might have been enough. However, his work involves lots of travelling within the UK and meeting new people, and despite his best efforts at introducing himself beforehand, he finds he is constantly 'misgendered' - read as female - and this throws his equilibrium off again. So now he wants to use T to enable him to grow facial hair and deepen his voice, to make this less likely to happen. (His body shape means that top surgery isn't necessary, as he also seriously restricts his food intake to keep a flat chest area.)

So in his case it isn't a question of hostile/negative reactions per se, although those things definitely do happen to him. But it's also a question of reactions that aren't deliberately hostile. He experiences the word 'she' as deeply traumatic.

This is exactly the type of person who I worry will be actively harmed by the current transactivist dogma. He is a gentle soul who just wants to live his life. Presentation and perception are all-important to him. I can't imagine him shouting about his 'male cunt'. I can fully understand why, in our gendered society, he suffers from this hideous dysphoria, as part of his wider MH issues. For example, he suffered terrible abuse pre-transition, when he was a masc-presenting lesbian. I wish him all the best in finding peace with himself, but the root of his situation is not that he is really a man who is inappropriately being perceived as a woman. It's the fact that he hates his natural body and wants people to think he has a different type of body, and is terribly distressed when his efforts are not successful.

It also to my mind illustrates the need for trans-specific spaces. If the TAs get their way, and any self-declared woman, regardless of presentation (and presentation is all-important to my friend) can enter spaces that were set aside for biological woman to counteract biology-based oppression - what good will that do him? The fundamental issue is male violence, and he will be no safer from that than ever he was. Nor will any woman, trans or biological, because all spaces will be open to all men.

@Datun

Why bother with surgery? Oh, God...

Because I wanted it, more than anything else in the World. My happiest memory is sitting in the psychiatrist's office when he recommended it. I use my blog to thrash these ideas out in my mind:

Possibly because there was the concept of the real transsexual, in 2003- wanting surgery was part of that. That would be social pressure. Perversely, talking of "autogynephiliac men" may pressure some people into surgery, as proof we are not just perverts.
clareflourish.wordpress.com/2017/07/10/social-pressure-transsexual-transition/

Possibly because symbols matter, and people conflate symbols with reality. The real thing about gender which matters is the human interactions, treating someone with respect or not, but a lot of gender is about the symbols- nail varnish, short hair, whatever- we use to communicate. clareflourish.wordpress.com/2017/09/19/symbols-and-reality/

Possibly even because it is a short cut (oops) for the doctors. We get to the gender clinic knowing what we want, after waiting for years. We are following a path. They don't spend much time on us. clareflourish.wordpress.com/2017/09/22/transgender-medical-care/

"Chest masculinisation surgery" has the great advantage that men will look you in the eyes. It is not a price everyone is willing to pay, but some are.

This might be a wild stab in the dark, but do you have a blog you want to advertise?

This might be a wild stab in the dark, but do you have a blog you want to advertise?

Snort!

I will also mention that if you follow links to someone's blog, then assuming that like most of us you don't use a VPN, your location via IP Geolocation has now been given to that blog owner - sometimes as accurately as the street depending on what other data they have access to.

I'm not full tin foil hat, but it is an issue to be considered, especially given some TAs have the skills and patience for the long game, and others are definitely violent.

Yes I have a blog! Though it is mainly for trans women, so it would not attract most people here. I have better places to advertise it.

As I understand it, I only get your IP address if you comment on my blog. I have no wish to search you out.

Where do we actually disagree Clare?

Gender is bad, dysphoria is bad...

... I just don't want any man to gain access to women's spaces without some gatekeeping. (Not to mention sport etc).

The self Id law seems to lead to this.

Surely you can see this could be abused & leaves women with no recourse?

Or are you not supportive of the self Id law? What you've said so far would suggest you manage within current law & that's ok? Or have I misunderstood?

I'm not saying you have any reason, or are malicious at all Clare - just signposting it it general.

Your blogging setup might be that way, but I work with sites that log everything (in fact we use advanced geolocation on some of them - although you're notified of that and would be able to opt out - although then wouldn't be allowed to use the site) and I would know where you were down to your street!

People forget that the internet isn't as anonymous as it might seem.