Meet the Other Phone. A phone that grows with your child.

Meet the Other Phone.
A phone that grows with your child.

Buy now

Please or to access all these features

Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

I am Janice Turner's No 1 fan - another excellent article

538 replies

Stopmakingsense · 23/09/2017 07:19

This one picks up in particular the huge rise in women identifying as men, and the increasing inability of anyone being able to question it:

www.thetimes.co.uk/article/even-asking-questions-is-now-transphobic-ztk3rlrfk?shareToken=1f64a5116171eb54a9a866590e6432ec

OP posts:
Thread gallery
9
YetAnotherSpartacus · 01/10/2017 11:39

*It's mainly been middle-class, white men who have told me to 'check my privilege' as a woman

Have you ever tried asking them for lessons since clearly they ought to be experts*

Back to this - it's usually been when I have made a claim about women being denied something in some way, or me not having access to something. For example, once I was asked if I was attending a super-expensive conference and I said 'no' I did not have the resources - cue long rant about how I was a wealthy middle-class white woman in comparison to women from nation x, etc.

I think that white, middle-class men love intersectionality and trans because it is a stick they can beat women with. I've never seen them challenge men over things, just women, and we are always reminded of women (or trans) or sometimes men, less fortunate than us. It boils down to 'know your place, bitch'.

It's the same with a BME man I used to work with. He was always on about how white people (mainly women) should check their privilege in different ways and yet he was incredibly sexist - but no one dared to point this out.

qumquat · 01/10/2017 11:42

You can register to read the Telegraph article. It doesn't appear to cost anything just wants you to register.

busyboysmum · 01/10/2017 12:03

five years ago, Professor Miroslav Djordjevic, the world-leading genital reconstructive surgeon, received a visit at his Belgrade clinic: a transgender person who had undergone surgery at different clinic to remove male genitalia - and since changed their mind.

That was the first time Prof Djordjevichad ever been contacted to perform a so-called gender reassignment “reversal” surgery. Over the next six months, another six people also approached him, similarly wanting to reverse their procedures. They came from countries all over the western world, Britain included, united by an acute sense of regret.

At present, Prof Djordjevichas a further six prospective people in discussions with his clinic about reversals and two currently undergoing the process itself; reattaching the male genitalia is a complex procedure and takes several operations over the course of a year to fully complete (at a cost of some €18,000).

Professor Miroslav DjordjevicCREDIT: NYTNS

Those wishing to reverse theirgender reassignment, Prof Djordjevicsays, have spoken to him about experiencing crippling levels of depression following their transition and in some cases even contemplated suicide. “It can be a real disaster to hear these stories,” says the 52-year-old.

And yet, in the main part, they are not being heard.

Last week, it was alleged thatBath Spa Universityhas turned down an application for research on gender reassignment reversal because it was a subject deemed “potentially politically incorrect”. James Caspian, a psychotherapist who specialises in working with transgender people, suggested the research after a conversation with Prof Djordjevicin 2014 at a London restaurant where the Serbian told him about the number of reversals he was seeing, and the lack of academic rigour on the subject.

According to Caspian, the university initially approved his proposal to research “detransitioning”. He then amassed some preliminary findings that suggested a growing number of young people – particularly young women – who were transitioning their gender and then regretting it.

rof Djordjevicfears money is at the root of the problem, and says his reversal patients have told him about making initial enquiries to surgeries and simply being asked to send a cheque in return.

“I have heard stories of people visiting surgeries who only checked if they had the money to pay,” he says. “We have to stop this. As a community, we have to make very strong rules: nobody who wants to make this type of surgery or just make money can be allowed to do so.”

To date, all of his reversals have been transgender women aged over 30 wanting to restore their male genitalia. Over the last two decades, the average age of his patients has more than halved, from 45 years old to 21. While the World Professional Association for Transgender Health guidelines currently state nobody under the age of 18 should undergo surgery, Prof Djordjevicfears this age limit could soon be reduced to include minors.

Were that to happen, he says, he would refuse to abide by the rules. “I’m afraid what will happen five to 10 years later with this person,” he says. “It is more than about surgery; it’s an issue of human rights. I could not accept them as a patient because I’d be afraid what would happen to their brain and mind.”

Referrals to adult andchild genderidentity clinics in the UK have increased dramatically over the past 10 years. In April, the Tavistock and Portman NHS Foundation Trust, the only clinic for adolescents in England, reported 2,016 referrals to its gender identity development service, a 42 per cent increase compared to the previous year, which in itself marked a 104 per cent increase on the year before that.

The clinic stresses the majority of its young referrals do not end up receiving physical treatment through the service. While NHS guidelines state young people should not be givencross-sex hormone treatmentuntil 16, concerns have been raised about the lack of regulation particularly in the private sector.

Earlier this month, it was revealed a Monmouthshire MP, Dr Helen Webberley, was being investigated by the General Medical Council (GMC), following complaints from two GPs that she had treated children as young as 12 with hormones at her private clinic, which specialises in gender issues.

Referrals to adult and child gender clinics have increased dramaticallyCREDIT: E+

Dr Webberley insists she has done nothing wrong, and there were no “decisions or judgements” made on the claims against her. “There are many children under 16 who are desperate to start what they would consider their natural puberty earlier than that,” she said earlier this month.

Prof Djordjevicfeels differently, and admits he has deep reservations about treating children with hormonal drugs before they reach puberty – not least as by blocking certain hormones before they have sufficiently developed means they may find it difficult to undergo reassignment surgery in the future.

“Ethically, we have to help any person over the world starting from three to four years of age, but in the best possible way,” he says. “If you change general health with any drug, I’m not a supporter of that theory.”

These are profoundly life-changing matters around which he – like many in his industry – feel far better debate is required to promote new understanding.

But at the moment, it seems, that debate is simply being shut down.

YetAnotherSpartacus · 01/10/2017 12:14

That was fucking brilliant. Is the Emperor about to have his nakedness revealed? It is so interesting that since the incident at speakers' corner that so many people are beginning to speak up.

YesVeryGoodVeryStrong · 01/10/2017 12:56

Thanks for sharing busy.

TalkingintheDark · 01/10/2017 12:57

I fear we've a long way to go yet. Just seen Linda Bellos has been no platformed by the Beard society at Peterhouse College, Cambridge University.

The Beard Society is "a new platform within Peterhouse for the discussion of feminism and the role of women in modern society." But it's yet another women's group purporting to be feminist but centring males.

No platformed for saying she would be "publicly questioning some of the trans politics... which seem to assert the power of those previously designated male to tell lesbians, and especially lesbian feminists, what to say and think."

The co-president of the group said "I too believe in freedom of expression, however Peterhouse is as much a home as it is a college. The welfare of our students has to come first."

Not much of a home for any gender critical feminists/lesbians then. Zero concern for their welfare. And this idea that GC feminist discourse is actually harmful, that hearing it would be like being locked in a room and forced to inhale asbestos - when the real harm is being done TO WOMEN - Jesus, I just don't have words.

BUT having said all that, of course it's great to see that there is definitely a shift in the tone of reporting on the issue, in a wider sense.

Igneococcus · 01/10/2017 14:19

The co-president of the group said "I too believe in freedom of expression, however Peterhouse is as much a home as it is a college. The welfare of our students has to come first."

I know I'm old and from a country where students are a bit older on average when they get first to university but I would have been either outraged or highly amused if anyone would have suggested I would need protection from opinions different to mine.

Blanchefleur · 01/10/2017 14:40

The co-president of the group said "I too believe in freedom of expression"

Erm. no. No, you clearly don't.

"The welfare of our students has to come first."

Except lesbians, obviously. Has anyone told this co-president that she is being homophobic?

EmpressOfTheSpartacusOceans · 01/10/2017 15:02

It is possible that they're worried about violent protesters after what happened in London?

cheesetoast · 01/10/2017 15:15

Just caught up with thread, the Jo Cox award?!?! Please could I come along to Shady Pines? I make a proper Whiskey Sour.

ErrolTheDragon · 01/10/2017 15:18

Its very odd... I haven't heard of any transmen winning specifically male awards yet.ConfusedHmm

MillicentFawcett · 01/10/2017 15:24

Funny, that Hmm

Did you know that there is a transwoman on the list of 60 women that the BBC has already chosen on its list of 100 women? I wonder how many of the remaining 40 places will also go to men sorry, transwomen?

ErrolTheDragon · 01/10/2017 15:59

Todays Sunday Times piece - report on the private schools' Heads conference . They've not all drunk the kool-aid.

www.thetimes.co.uk/article/gender-fluid-girl-boards-with-boys-zv90hk5bp?shareToken=9b0718bf7801fff6eb5715249dca8894

HeyRoly · 01/10/2017 16:44

It would have been very rare indeed to have come across a transgender pupil before 2015. I worked in single-sex schools for 40 years. This issue never arose

Proof, like we needed it, that this is an Internet-driven phenomenon, rather than a genuine medical issue affecting a small percentage of teens.

Grawp · 01/10/2017 16:56

Yes that struck me Roly. I was trying to compare it to say lesbian/gay pupils - as in they maybe didn't necessarily come out and it maybe wasn't spoken about (over the last 40 years) but I imagine some teachers would have a clue that some of their pupils were gay. Obviously in more recent times with the change in society etc, hopefully more pupils are able to come out whilst they are at school, but it's not a new thing, it has always been there. Does that make any sense?! I don't feel I've got across what I want to say there at all.

MillicentFawcett · 01/10/2017 18:05

The phenomenal increase in referrals - and this year's drop - strongly suggests fashion is a big driver. Now it's become more mainstream, young people are less interested. And perhaps explains the ramping up of pressure from older TRAs? They're losing traction

tavistockandportman.nhs.uk/about-us/news/stories/gids-referrals-increase-slows-201617/

Lancelottie · 01/10/2017 19:11

There were about 700 referrals to the Tavistock last year (not sure if that was teens or a wider age range. So, assuming this is a real reflection of typical numbers, presumably there used to be around 300 gender-related suicide attempts before it became acceptable to come out. Is that roughly what used to be seen, pre-Tavistock days?

I'm asking because although I know that the 40% figure based on 27 cases is widely quoted and debunked, I've seen similar statistics from US studies of larger numbers.

I think there's a real danger that with looser regulation and monitoring, there will be no way to collect relevant data for the sake of all concerned.

Lancelottie · 01/10/2017 19:13

Sorry, I realise that, first, that sounds flippant, whereas teenage suicide stats are anything but; and also, I'm trying to compare numbers referred in one year to numbers attempting suicide at any point in their lives, so the answer is probably not straightforward.

borntobequiet · 01/10/2017 21:01

Look at the crossover point between 2010/11 and 11/12. Suddenly far more F to M than before. What happened?
I still think the main driver of F to M transitioning is hormonal, rather than ASD.
gids.nhs.uk/number-referrals

OlennasWimple · 01/10/2017 22:09

Presumably the Beard Society at Peterhouse is named for Mary Beard?

I wonder what she thinks about no-platforming?

Lancelottie · 01/10/2017 22:25

Bloody hell, my numbers were waaay out. Thanks, Born.

So there are five times as many referrals at primary age as there were in 2010, but 20 times as many in the mid-teens?

And some poor child was referred at 3?

Rumandraisin1 · 01/10/2017 22:51

Presumably the Beard Society at Peterhouse is named for Mary Beard?

I assumed it was to acknowledge that some women have beards and that they need to be centred in our feminism...

badbadhusky · 01/10/2017 22:53

Naughty rum! Wink

TheWeeWitch · 01/10/2017 23:15

Thanks for that link @borntobequiet

Crikey.

I’ve just posted this on the debate thread, but it perhaps fits here too. It’s from Lily Maynard’s latest blog post. It focuses on the silencing of the parents of trans kids and the repeated fact that kids are pushed to transition without proper care and counselling. It’s an upsetting read.

lilymaynard.wordpress.com/2017/10/01/my-mother-heart-bleeds/amp/

Please create an account

To comment on this thread you need to create a Mumsnet account.

This thread is closed and is no longer accepting replies. Click here to start a new thread.

Swipe left for the next trending thread